Sparring

[Ironbear24]

Well it certainly was not evidence of what happens when you don't spar full contact.

It was evidence of bullshido.

 

[marques]

Can one only become a good fighter and be prepared for a fight if they spar? Or is simply learning the form and ingraining those movements into one's reflexes just as efficient?

To fight in a combat sport? It is absolutely required. With different aims and intensities...
Other ends, I'm not sure.

 

[Hanzou]

It was evidence of bullshido.

Which spawns when a martial art isn't properly vetted. Typically styles with a heavy sparring component tend to do just fine in the vetting process.

 

[drop bear]

It was evidence of bullshido.

Well no. Ashida kim could be a brilliant and competent martial artist. He just chooses not to show it on YouTube. Because he is not interested in the attention.

Not everything is on you tube you know.

(See what I did there?)

 

[drop bear]

Which spawns when a martial art isn't properly vetted. Typically styles with a heavy sparring component tend to do just fine in the vetting process.

It is still layered. You have to have a system that actually works as well.

 

[Hanzou]

It is still layered. You have to have a system that actually works as well.

Sure, but a fighting/sparring intensive style can work out its flaws a lot more quickly.

How? Because they quickly figure out what works and doesn't work. A baptism by fire if you will.

 

[drop bear]

Sure, but a fighting/sparring intensive style can work out its flaws a lot more quickly.

How? Because they quickly figure out what works and doesn't work. A baptism by fire if you will.

Depends on the quality of the guy you are fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on the quality of the guy you are fighting.

Absolutely. You should fight as wide a group of people as possible. MMA guys, Boxers, Karate guys, whatever you can. You shouldn't restrict it to people within your own style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Absolutely. You should fight as wide a group of people as possible. MMA guys, Boxers, Karate guys, whatever you can. You shouldn't restrict it to people within your own style.

One should test his

- punching skill in boxing (such as golden glove boxing),
- punching/kicking skill in MT, kickboxing, ...
- wrestling skill in Shuai Chiao, Judo, wrestling, ...
- ground skill in BJJ,
- punching/kicking/wrestling skill in Sanda, Sanshou, ...
- punching/kicking/wrestling/ground skill in MMA,

in order to understand where exactly he may truly stand.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One should test his

- punching skill in boxing (such as golden glove boxing),
- punching/kicking skill in MT, kickboxing, ...
- wrestling skill in Shuai Chiao, Judo, wrestling, ...
- ground skill in BJJ,
- punching/kicking/wrestling skill in Sanda, Sanshou, ...
- punching/kicking/wrestling/ground skill in MMA,

in order to understand where exactly he may truly stand.

That'd take way more time than I have for martial arts. As an ideal, sure.

 

[Hanzou]

Borrowed from another thread:

A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Borrowed from another thread:

A pretty good representation of someone mostly doing sparring training, and someone mostly doing form training.

I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.

He was outclassed because of his training.

His training encompassed a lot of forms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He was outclassed because of his training.

His training encompassed a lot of forms.

My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video. What I see issomeone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't see the evidence of the latter - it just looks like he was outclassed, to me.

I think there's a lot to be said about this video. To me it looks like form training isn't being don correctly, because he's moving at the same speed as a person would if they were doing the form. For me correct from practice should consist of Form with Technique, Form with Power, Form With Speed, and From with Speed and Power. The form has to be practiced this way in order to be able to use the technique at the appropriate speed. His punches and kicks were too slow and I could tell that there wasn't any connection of power so he was basically using only the arms to generate the power.

The second issue I see is that the guy needs to work on his stance training because his footing was all over the place. Had his footing been better he would have been able to make use of some sweeps

If he does spar, then his sparring is lazy or one dimensional. He was gassed out way too soon which makes me think he doesn't go hard on his forms because the forms alone should be building his cardiovascular endurance. Continuous sparring will suck the energy out of you if you don't have that endurance.

The biggest problem that I have with this entire video is that for CMAs the fighting should be representative of your fighting system and I didn't see any baguazhang techniques in this fight. You can even hear from his coaching crowd "circle, circle" Had it not been for the title no one here would have known it was baguazhang or even some type of kung fu.

Last but not least. Lack of understanding of the fighting application of the form. The only way to get this type of experience is to spar using the techniques. Understanding comes from doing with knowledge and not just knowing what an application is.

What I did like the most was the Muay Thai fighter saw that he was the better fighter and started pulling the power off his attacks. At that point it was just an opportunity for the Muay Thai fighter to work on some of his other techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video. What I see issomeone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.

Training forms and knowing how to apply the technique in fighting are 2 different worlds. Even if he trained forms he didn't train the application of those forms properly because there was no kung fu at all in what he did.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The biggest problem that I have with this entire video is that for CMAs the fighting should be representative of your fighting system and I didn't see any baguazhang techniques in this fight. You can even hear from his coaching crowd "circle, circle" Had it not been for the title no one here would have known it was baguazhang or even some type of kung fu.

This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything.

Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.

 

[Hanzou]

My point was that I don't see anything in there that indicates he trained a lot of forms nor that he only trained in them. I know nothing of that art/style, so I can only respond to what I see in the video.

Read up on it, Baguazhang is quite a lovely style in terms of forms. Lots of circular movement, and quite an interesting theory on fighting.

In fact, many say that Ueshiba incorporated some Bagua principles into Aikido.

What I see is someone who was outclassed, whatever the reason.

Then how do you think he was outclassed? Was the MT guy simply THAT much better than him?

My argument is simple; Muay Thai training is typically body toughening, hard contact, lots of cardio, and lots of sparring.
Internal Kung Fu training is typically lots of forms, and lots of philosophy.

The Muay Thai fighter is going to learn how to punch something, and how to take a punch. They're going to toughen their shins in order to leg check someone and and perform devastating leg kicks. They're probably going to supplement their training with weight and cardio training in order to compete in the ring.

The Bagua fighter is going to do forms and listen to philosophy about how to build their internal energy. Why lift weights when they're taught that power is generated from the ligaments and sinews? Why do cardio when everything is about being relaxed and calm? Why spar when the techniques are supposedly "too deadly" to mess around with?

Make them fight each other (in any context), and you get the results above. Crazy thing is they even told the MT fighter than he couldn't use elbows and knees. Imagine how much worse this fight would have went if those were allowed....

 

[Hanzou]

Here's another great example;

Goju Ryu vs Xingyi stylist. Both show off competent form work, but when they start to actually fight one another, everything falls apart.

Put either one of them in the ring with that MT fighter from earlier, and they would do about as well as that Bagua fellow.

 

[drop bear]

This. I think this is what I was seeing earlier. It just looks like someone poorly trained. I don't know much of CMA, but I'd expect to see something I recognize as not Western or Japanese. All I saw was weak sparring, with none of the hints of movements I'd recognize from what I'd call "typical" CMA - stances, circles, anything.

Is this just another case of a poor example of an art against a better example of another? We all know there's plenty of that to be found in videos.

A fight can also be a big nasty rude shock if you are not ready for it.

By the way the CMA fighter broke mentally. As much as people like to believe they are ready for life or death fights quite often they are not equipped to deal with that sort of punishment and have the will power to keep pushing on.

Sparring is one way of overcoming that issue.