Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Hanzou]

They are not great discussions because of your input. You posted the videos to Make fun of the people and the styles. Any good or great info came from other posters

In your opinion.

Besides, the argument was that no good or great discussions could come from that source with or without my input. Clearly that isn't the case.

 

[Tez3]

Not the point. I was saying that the craziness began just from me saying that Wado is a combo of Karate and jujutsu in one post.

I also notice that you're not saying anything about the good/great discussions that spawned from posting random videos of people not performing well.

No, there wasn't any craziness at all, just people telling you about their art. You are the only one who thinks it is craziness, and frankly you flatter yourself it you think you caused anyone anything other than a very mild amusement. I rather resent that someone is posting up videos with the intent of making fun of people, 'look how bad these guys are'. It's negative to start with.

No I'm not saying anything about those discussions because I don't have time to go and look at them, I have a life away from the computer, I have to cook dinner for one thing, it's nearly 1900h where I am.
Posting random videos of people doing things not very well is more in line with a pop television show really rather than a base for 'interesting' discussions. A better thing would be posting up videos, if you must, of people doing things well.

 

[Hanzou]

No, there wasn't any craziness at all, just people telling you about their art. You are the only one who thinks it is craziness, and frankly you flatter yourself it you think you caused anyone anything other than a very mild amusement. I rather resent that someone is posting up videos with the intent of making fun of people, 'look how bad these guys are'. It's negative to start with.

No I'm not saying anything about those discussions because I don't have time to go and look at them, I have a life away from the computer, I have to cook dinner for one thing, it's nearly 1900h where I am.
Posting random videos of people doing things not very well is more in line with a pop television show really rather than a base for 'interesting' discussions. A better thing would be posting up videos, if you must, of people doing things well.

Talking about boozing and calling me a variety of names for saying that Wado is a combo of Karate and Jj are people talking about their art? Okay.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree Tez. You refuse to admit that hijacking a thread because of one post was uncalled for and silly, and you refuse to acknowledge the positive discussions that I posted.

There's really nothing more to discuss. Feel free to have the last word if you wish.

 

[ballen0351]

In your opinion.

Besides, the argument was that no good or great discussions could come from that source with or without my input. Clearly that isn't the case.

Well I wouldnt really consider any of that nonsense great to begin with. Ive seen you troll, style bash, troll some more, you have bashed damn near ever style out there except of course the almighty BJJ. I removed you from ignore when I reset all my settings because of forum problems I was having but Ill fix that now. Keep on trolling, lying, and bashing since that seems ok here now

 

[jks9199]

Something else has come to mind...

One thing that never furthers a conversation is labeling... If I throw a label at someone, I've already dismissed what they're saying. If you've got a concern like that, please, use the Report button to let the Mod staff know. We'll look at it, and take whatever action is appropriate. But throwing a label out at someone like that? All that's going to do is raise hackles and make people act all defensive.

 

[Tez3]

Sometimes you feel you can't do right for doing wrong. Thread is getting a bit heated so introduce a lighter note to ease the atmosphere because it was clear that it was on it's way to being locked which of course it was it's dismissed as hijacking so things carry on to the predicted conclusion. Offer a conciliatory tone ie 'what's yours' and you are talked down to and again dismissed. Pointless even trying.
As for calling people names, I believe Elder is still waiting for his apology over the racist remark made to him.

 

[elder999]

As for calling people names, I believe Elder is still waiting for his apology over the racist remark made to him.

No, he's not.

 

[Tez3]

No, he's not.

You've given up waiting?

 

[Cirdan]

I guess it is a question of which head gets to apologize?

 

[elder999]

You've given up waiting?

.

Ain't happening.

 

[ballen0351]

.

Hey your whole again lol Your post counts about to skyrocket

 

[drop bear]

No, you don't. There is no logic in your posts, there is bias, prejudice, a real lack of understanding and information, and a denial of any others information and evidence.



Good. But remember that that is the most common form you're going to get from others… dismissing it when you have nothing to counter it with is not logical, nor any basis for good conversation. In other words… listen… you might just learn something.



Okay.



I don't know that I'd class that as "self defence"… as, well, it isn't. Handling violence? Sure. But, broadly, that's not the same thing.



Okay. Might I suggest that you impart some of that experience, then? So far, that hasn't been what you've been talking about in the majority of the posts you've made…



No, it's really not. There are about 100 different forums here… only one is "street" by definition. While it can be a part of many discussions in many areas, that's not the way it's set up.



I don't know what high school you went to, but… can't say I agree with that…

Look, there are differences… but that, I don't think, is really one of them… at least, not a major one…



No, there is the potential for conflict… if there is conflict whenever you deal with anyone, then mate, you have issues that need to be addressed.



It hasn't been addressed as it's not the reality for most here.



Then you're on the wrong board, if you're looking for a fight every time you post.

Look, heated discussion is one thing… passionate debate as well. And yes, that can get towards the idea of conflict… but, if you're posting looking for a fight, even expecting one, you are seriously in the wrong place… you're going against the spirit of this board, and the TOS you agreed to. The desire for fights, and the appearance of trying to start them (with obtuse posting, denial of anyone else's point of view, and so forth) is really, genuinely, the definition of trolling. And that will see you banned.



No, this is not sparring… this is conversation. No-one here is looking to get "smashed" or "tapped"… and bluntly, you don't have the tools for that… so I suggest you re-assess why you're here.

And you might want to remember, that a number here, including myself, don't spar… in my case, I just go straight to severing limbs.



I don't even know what you mean by this… you comment that you like to fight, that all conversation involves people getting "smashed" or "tapped"… and then say it's shades of grey? Really?





Yeah, you're not getting what is being said in that article… sure, sparring can be looked at as a conversation (an exchange between two or more), rather than a monologue (a single viewpoint expressed by one person)… but what that's meaning is that, when you're sparring, you should be as conscious of the other person, and what they're bringing as you are focused on what you're doing yourself… the admonition is to avoid focusing solely on yourself, and limit the lessons you can take from the engagement.

There is no correlation to say that therefore, conversation is sparring… it's not.



That's not what was being said. But, to give you an answer, in a sparring match, both of you are engaging actively, knowing the parameters and aims, knowing what you're getting into… you know the other guy is going to try to hit you in the face, and you get to hit him back. It's an agreed upon situation. In a conversation, on an assumed friendly platform, to have someone try to "smash you", when that's not the agreed upon situation or environment, then yeah, it's pretty rude, inflammatory, and so on… and, again, in the context of this board, trolling.

For the record, I keep harping on that to highlight to you how you're representing yourself, in the hopes that you recognise it, and can change for the better.



Let's put it this way… even in sparring, there are considerations and parameters… let's say you're rolling in BJJ… positions, submission, escape only… no striking, no flesh grabs, and so on… and your partner decides to just start slamming their elbow into your head. It's not part of that sparring construct… and when you tell them that that's not this session, even if you also spar with striking at other times, he just laughs and says "hey dude, it's fighting… ya gotta be ready for this!", how do you take it?

It's the same here… again, sparring and conversation are very different… especially where this board is concerned… suddenly raining down elbows just isn't appropriate. It really doesn't matter what you "accept" in terms of your take on conversation, as it is completely besides the point.



No, you don't (test your ideas against resistance)… you bluntly stubbornly refuse to accept any such resistance. To put it in terms you might understand, it's like someone trying to train an arm bar (note: train, not rolling) with you, and you not giving the position to practice it in… and then claiming that they don't know how to choke you. That's not resistance.



Because it's a conversation…? Seriously, if you don't get that, take a good, hard look at the way you interact with people.





Really? For the record, there was pretty much nothing in K-man's post that was incorrect… quite the opposite… if you disagreed with it, I'd recommend taking a serious look at what he was saying… and your personal behaviour here, as K-man's assessment is damn well on the money.

yeah but you don't spar.

and you cant accept that there may be conflict in your life.

so it is probably not a concept you are going to understand.

 

[drop bear]

Lets look at this like a debate. An actual two team pre arranged meet up where people have trained and prepared to defend their ideas against a resisted opponent.

like sparring. See?

not an echo chamber where we all just follow the leader.

we should be able to disagree. Nobody is such an expert that they cant face criticism.

 

[drop bear]

Argument from authority - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

and why i was resistant to just beat people over the head with my experience. It is effectively cheating in the context of argument.

an appeal to authority misused is a logical fallacy.

 

[ballen0351]

Argument from authority - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

and why i was resistant to just beat people over the head with my experience. It is effectively cheating in the context of argument.

an appeal to authority misused is a logical fallacy.

Except being an expert is valid and their opinions do hold more value then others. I for example am a recognized expert in various topics related to illegal narcotics activity. I get called to court to give my opinion in cases I had no involvement in other then reading a case file. Can I be wrong sure but my opinion is held at a higher value then an average joe on the street.
Others here have far more experience in certain martial arts styles compared to people that have never trained in it. For example Id value Kman's opinion on Goju Ryu higher then then someone that says they never trained in Goju when the topic is discussing Goju. Id value Steves opinion on BJJ over mine on the topic of BJJ because he knows more then me.

The argument falls apart when people cant accept that someone knows more then they do on a topic. If I stared arguing with Steve about what is in and not in BJJ and Steve says look I train BJJ and I do XYZ. I then say well XYZ isnt in BJJ. Well Im a fool. Or I make excuses like well you do XYZ but its not from BJJ you stole it from another style so that doesnt count.

 

[Steve]

Where it gets sticky is when one expert tells another expert he doesn't know what he's talking about. While I know bjj, I would be reluctant to argue that I'm an expert on all things grappling. So, I wouldn't presume to speak about all of grappling without providing some context. We have people here who are comfortable speaking about all things martial arts, all things RBSD, all things everything, and who then tell other people, that they are not in fact experts, despite their extensive experience.

Also, as a purple belt, Hanzou is as expert in bjj as I. If you guys consider me credible, he has as much authority as me, which is middling. Sure, I know more than most, but within bjj, I have a lot to learn.

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[ballen0351]

Where it gets sticky is when one expert tells another expert he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sure that happens all the time Usually if Im called as an expert for the state the defense calls their own to disagree. But that witness has some expertise in the topic. What we have here lately is some folks that "may" know BJJ telling people who study Okinawan Karate, or Korean Styles etc what is and isnt in there system when he has have never studied it.

While I know bjj, I would be reluctant to argue that I'm an expert on all things grappling. So, I wouldn't presume to speak about all of grappling without providing some context. We have people here who are comfortable speaking about all things martial arts, all things RBSD, all things everything, and who then tell other people, that they are not in fact experts, despite their extensive experience.

Also, as a purple belt, Hanzou is as expert in bjj as I. If you guys consider me credible, he has as much authority as me, which is middling. Sure, I know more than most, but within bjj, I have a lot to learn.

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Ive never seen anyone question Hanzon on BJJ topics (but I dont go into the BJJ section so I guess it could happen) What I do see is he gets questioned quite alot when he speaks out of turn on other styles. Thats the issue. Im smart enough not to go into the BJJ section and tell you what your doing is wrong and sucks. I can find Hanzo doing that in just about every style subsection on this forum. Thats where the conflict comes in. Someone that doesnt study Wado Ryu telling a Wado Ryu practitioner whats in their style. You got to be smart enough to know what you dont know. Hanzo might be very knowledgeable in BJJ Im not convinced but ok.
When he post clips of female fighters so he can make fun of them well it rubs folks the wrong way. When he calls Elder a racial slur that Elder said was offensive and asked for an apology that rubs people wrong. Maybe he doesnt care I know lots of people here dont like me I get random PMs all the time letting me know I personally dont care but I dont see the fun in posting random clips to show how bad this style or that style is. All I can think of is these people prob work hard and take pride in their arts and are having fun just like I do and if they were to come here and see they have been used as a punch line is wrong.

 

[K-man]

Where it gets sticky is when one expert tells another expert he doesn't know what he's talking about. While I know bjj, I would be reluctant to argue that I'm an expert on all things grappling. So, I wouldn't presume to speak about all of grappling without providing some context. We have people here who are comfortable speaking about all things martial arts, all things RBSD, all things everything, and who then tell other people, that they are not in fact experts, despite their extensive experience.

Also, as a purple belt, Hanzou is as expert in bjj as I. If you guys consider me credible, he has as much authority as me, which is middling. Sure, I know more than most, but within bjj, I have a lot to learn.

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Steve credibility comes from the value and integrity of your posts, not necessarily from expertise. For example there are several obviously young posters on MT with limited MA experience making great contributions to the forum. Sometimes they might get it a bit wrong, someone points out what that is, they take that on board and have benefitted from the experience.

As to whether Hanzou has expertise or not, I really don't know and I don't really care. What he says that seems to be credible loses credibility when he turns on some other style or person. That makes me ask, does he really know what he is talking about or is he just taking another cheap shot? I am not in any position to question his opinion on BJJ and I haven't. That is for others with more knowledge than me.

Is a BJJ purple belt an expert? Who knows? He might be a competent grappler but that doesn't mean a lot when it comes to expert opinion. Is a person with the same time in training in another style an expert? Obviously not if what has been posted is to be believed.

 

[Hanzou]

Ive never seen anyone question Hanzon on BJJ topics (but I dont go into the BJJ section so I guess it could happen) What I do see is he gets questioned quite alot when he speaks out of turn on other styles. Thats the issue. Im smart enough not to go into the BJJ section and tell you what your doing is wrong and sucks. I can find Hanzo doing that in just about every style subsection on this forum. Thats where the conflict comes in. Someone that doesnt study Wado Ryu telling a Wado Ryu practitioner whats in their style. You got to be smart enough to know what you dont know. Hanzo might be very knowledgeable in BJJ Im not convinced but ok.

I said that Wado Ryu is a combo of Karate and jujutsu. According to Wikipedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadō-ryū

The ancestor styles of Wado Ryu are Shindō Yōshin-ryū and Shotokan. Wouldn't that indicate that that is in their style?

 

[Steve]

Sure that happens all the time Usually if Im called as an expert for the state the defense calls their own to disagree. But that witness has some expertise in the topic. What we have here lately is some folks that "may" know BJJ telling people who study Okinawan Karate, or Korean Styles etc what is and isnt in there system when he has have never studied it.

Ive never seen anyone question Hanzon on BJJ topics (but I dont go into the BJJ section so I guess it could happen) What I do see is he gets questioned quite alot when he speaks out of turn on other styles. Thats the issue. Im smart enough not to go into the BJJ section and tell you what your doing is wrong and sucks. I can find Hanzo doing that in just about every style subsection on this forum. Thats where the conflict comes in. Someone that doesnt study Wado Ryu telling a Wado Ryu practitioner whats in their style. You got to be smart enough to know what you dont know. Hanzo might be very knowledgeable in BJJ Im not convinced but ok.
When he post clips of female fighters so he can make fun of them well it rubs folks the wrong way. When he calls Elder a racial slur that Elder said was offensive and asked for an apology that rubs people wrong. Maybe he doesnt care I know lots of people here dont like me I get random PMs all the time letting me know I personally dont care but I dont see the fun in posting random clips to show how bad this style or that style is. All I can think of is these people prob work hard and take pride in their arts and are having fun just like I do and if they were to come here and see they have been used as a punch line is wrong.

Not talking about Hanzou, ballen. I only mentioned that he and I are (I think) the same rank. I was thinking more along the lines of drop bear's points on appeals to authority.


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