Some help please....

[Templar]

I recently heard a rumor that was really disturbing to me. (Keep in mind that I said it was a rumor.) I recently heard that there were some allegations about a proposed link between high ranking members of the Bujinkan and a Japanese terrorist organization. I also heard that they have been banned from Spain because of this?

Has anyone heard anything about this, or have any details?

Thanks in advance,


M. Servino

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

From Spain? You're not mixing these facts up with the expulsion of Ruy Mendoza, are you?

 

[Templar]

Maybe I am. I simply heard that some member of the Bujinkan in Japan were accussed of supporting a known cult (Aum Shinrikyo (sp?)), and that it had something to do with the banning of the art in Spain. Other than that, I really don't know anything additional.

M. Servino

 

[Don Roley]

I recently heard that there were some allegations about a proposed link between high ranking members of the Bujinkan and a Japanese terrorist organization. I also heard that they have been banned from Spain because of this?

False. Who did you hear this from? Last time I checked, Pedro, etc were still teaching in Spain.

A great while back, there was a guy who hated the Bujinkan who tried to spread this rumor on another forum. He even contacted immigration to try to deny Hatsumi a visa into the states for the Tai Kai because of his alleged ties to terrorists. It ended up going to the FBI. Nothing came of it. There was no substance to the story that an investigation could find. Despite this, it was months before the flame wars caused by these accusations died down after the forum manager cracked the whip. Now, the rumor seems to have spread to the internet at large.

If there was any kind of link between the cult and the Bujinkan, the press in Japan would have been all over it in the aftermath of the subway gassing. There is nothing. Yet, some of the rumors spread on the internet say that the Bujinkan helped train the cult. Again, if that was true, then why has every news source in Japan ignored such a sensational story?

I have heard that maybe ex-aum members have joined the Bujinkan, and that there was a Bujinkan member ostracized out after he started up with the cult. I have no way of confirming these stories.

But the important thing to know is that you can train in Bujinkan in Spain and no one has been able to find any evidence for any type of link between the senior staff of the Bujinkan and the cult.

 

[Templar]

That's good to here. I assume that Hatsumi himself was never one of the ones in question?

Internet is a dangerous place people. One comment can spread to thousands of places....

 

[Kizaru]

I have heard that maybe ex-aum members have joined the Bujinkan, and that there was a Bujinkan member ostracized out after he started up with the cult. I have no way of confirming these stories..

I have confirmed with three Japanese shihan that one of Hatsumi sensei's Japanese students from years ago is/was part of the Aum cult.

HOWEVER!

This person felt that the beliefs of the Aum cult and the Bujinkan CONFLICTED and therefore LEFT THE BUJINKAN. This person left the Bujinkan AT LEAST 10 or 15 years ago according to my sources.

If the Bujinkan has been banned in Spain, it could not be because of this. THERE IS NO DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE AUM CULT AND THE BUJINKAN.

I'll write it again, just in case anyone missed it the first time...

THERE IS NO DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE AUM CULT AND THE BUJINKAN.

:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Templar,
A belated welcome to the ninjutsu section. Can you tell me where you heard the rumor? With all the people out there that try to pull themselves up by tearing down the Bujinkan with untrue stories and such, it is nice to know where to expect the latest attacks.

 

[Shogun]

Looks like the Ninja are suiting up for war again......

 

[gmunoz]

Oh no. There they go again...

 

[Templar]

Hi Don. Thanks for the welcome.

As for my source, I can't say with all certainty where the original rumor started. A friend of mine in our local class here, heard the rumor from a guy who teaches a class in Columbus, Oh. I will ask if he got a name. I don't believe the guy was a Ninpo student himself.

Isn't it strange for a country to ban a martial arts for the actions of one person? Sounds to me like the Spanish government has jumped the gun on this one.

 

[Don Roley]

Isn't it strange for a country to ban a martial arts for the actions of one person? Sounds to me like the Spanish government has jumped the gun on this one.

The Spainish goverment has not banned a martial art. I remember writing that Pedro, etc were still teaching. What makes you believe that the Spainish goverment did anything? There is no link between the cult and the Bujinkan and Bujinkan is still practiced in Spain.

Do you have anything to prove otherwise? You only have to look on a few web pages linked from Winjutsu.com to see that there are still Bujinkan groups active in Spain.

Hatsumi has been honored by the Imperial Household Agency here in the name of the emporer twice in the last few years. If you lived in Japan you would know how silly it was to think there could be any blotch on Hatsumi and his orginization and yet still stand the scrutiny they give.

And what is the name of the guy that told you the story?

 

[Templar]

I think you need to read my posts Don, I am not casting allegations at the Bujinkan, i'm simply asking questions. I'm not familiar with Ninjutsu at all, but I have always believe Mr. Hatsumi to be a very honorable man. My only experience with Ninjutsu is in reading "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition."

The guys name is Jonathan Kriel, if that helps. As I stated beforehand, I am not sure who passed the rumor to him though.

 

[Don Roley]

i'm simply asking questions.

The problem is that your questions seem to be based on the assumption that someone from the Bujinkan trained the cult, and that training in Bujinkan is now banned in Spain. Neither is true. I tried to make that clear with my first post about how Pedro, etc was still training in Spain. You seemed to have missed that and I think that the point needs to be stressed that Spain HAS NOT banned the Bujinkan and there is no substance to this rumor of the cult being trained by the Bujinkan.

 

[Deaf]

Hi Don. Thanks for the welcome.

As for my source, I can't say with all certainty where the original rumor started. A friend of mine in our local class here, heard the rumor from a guy who teaches a class in Columbus, Oh. I will ask if he got a name. I don't believe the guy was a Ninpo student himself.

Isn't it strange for a country to ban a martial arts for the actions of one person? Sounds to me like the Spanish government has jumped the gun on this one.

"Oo, I heard it through the grapevine, and I’m just about to lose my mind."...

Do you happen to know what martial art that this person in Columbus, Ohio is currently in?

Currently I only know of 1 bujinkan school and a training group within that area so I am wondering if this might be a case of "slandering by the competition" type stuff.

I personally think that it is ridiculous to hold an organization (Bujinkan) responsible for every member's actions etc. If the case was true, were a member of the Bujinkan was part of a cult, then judge the individual and not the organization. The Bujinkan in and of itself is not a cult or condones any type of behavior like that. It is a martial art school.

~Deaf~

 

[Don Roley]

I personally think that it is ridiculous to hold an organization (Bujinkan) responsible for every member's actions etc. If the case was true, were a member of the Bujinkan was part of a cult, then judge the individual and not the organization. The Bujinkan in and of itself is not a cult or condones any type of behavior like that. It is a martial art school.

And especially since as it should be stressed so that no one is mistaken about it, the story I heard was that the guy left the Bujinkan in order to join the cult as a lay member. Kizaru says he left on his own, I seem to remember hearing that he was made unwelcome in a very Japanese fashion- (they don't like to toss people out but induce them to leave on their own) but in any case we are talking about someone who was an ex-member and not one training in the Bujinkan.

And I can't find any confirmation or mention of his name in the stories after the gas attack. I can point you to very detailed and sensational stories about the make up of the cult and its quasi- military arm. The case was kind of like the OJ trial and 9-11 rolled into one. The media was all over it, and if there has been anything as sensational as a ninja training the cult, they would have run with it. But searches of a national periodical database can't find any mention of it. For all I know, the guy was either one of the majority of members who just attended meetings while living a normal life, and/or he dropped out of the cult soon after trying it out.

 

[jibran]

I know that I am a new member but Moderators, will you please lock this stupid thread?

 

[Jeff Boler]

What's stupid about the thread? A person asked a question about a rumor (which is good that he didn't just accept it face value), and he got an answer. Had this been questioning a rumor about the Genbukan, or some other ninpo organization, I doubt that you would have jumped as fast to see the thread closed.

 

[jibran]

Actually, I am too new to Bujinkan to really care about the X-Kan politics. I just said it was stupid because it (the question) was answered already and the thread was becoming misleading.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A question was asked, and looks to me that an answer was given.

To avoid any issues or misunderstandings this thread is now locked.

If there were / are any side topics raised by this thread please feel free to start a new thread discussing the new topic.

:asian:

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator