Cross training in various Kans?

[Highland Ninja]

Before I start my question, I have a request. Puh-lease...let's not let this descend into a kan vs. kan or SKH vs. Bujinkan thread. I've seen enough of those to make my head spin and my eyes bleed.

My question comes up because I am re-joining the Bujinkan after a long absence (started training in the early 80's, stopped in the very late 80's, starting up again now). I've looked at the various x-kans, decided to stick with Soke Hatsumi, and that's that.

However, every organization has its issues. And Bujinkan seems to have some issues concerning people doing the same things differently (ie your ichimonji no kamae does not look like mine, etc). I do want to learn the various ryu Soke is teaching, and learn them properly.

So my question is this. I've heard that Manaka (Genbukan) teaches the techniques in a very regimented, strict and exacting manner compared to many of the Bujinkan instructors. Is it possible to cross train between Bujinkan and Genbukan and not have problems? In other words, train in Bujinkan to develop the "feeling" and flow that Soke emphasizes, but also train in Genbukan in order to develop very correct basics and exact, correct movement according to each ryu? Or would that cause problems by going in two different directions, even though both are teaching essentially the same art(s)?

Or is that even an issue? Are there instructors out there (in Bujinkan) who are doing things exactly as taught via Soke and the various shihan? It appears that James Morganelli in Chicago is highly recommended based on talking to a few people elsewhere. Perhaps there is no need to cross training to get to where I want to be? Is it possible to train in Bujinkan and get taught the techniques the same way Soke does them (ie correctly)?

Also, from a political viewpoint (and please, let's not let this get flamey, just a yes or no)...would cross training in that manner offend some of the Japanese shihan and other high ranking students of Soke and/or Soke himself? I'm still unclear as to how that situation stands. (A private message to answer that part might well be the best way to go, now that I think about it.)

As I said, I'm not into airing dirty laundry and I'm saddened that some of the shihan under Soke have split off under unfriendly circumstances, but I'm not trying to judge anyone. However, since I am mainly committed to studying in the Bujinkan under Soke, obviously I'd be wise to avoid doing anything that would offend him or the teachers in his system. I've read a lot of the "kan wars" online, but frankly they make my head spin because they always descend into flame wars and I can never read far enough into them to get a straight answer (it makes my head hurt).

Finally, for the record I would not be training in Toshindo as I have my own issues with SKH. Also, I assume I would not train in Jinenkan because from what I understand, that was an unfriendly split and I assume there would be friction there. But I thought the split with Manaka was friendly and that cross training in Genbukan might be a workable option.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[stephen]

Since you've already mentioned James:

I suggest you go to his class and ask him. He's insanely good and a super nice guy. Definitely one of the best instructors out there. He lived in Japan for a few years and is a student of Nagato sensei, so he teaches in much the same way.

I've talked with him about how to train kata and was very happy with his thoughts. I suggest you go train and see what you think.

 

[Highland Ninja]

Thanks Stephen!

I watched a class with James once, and was very impressed with his movement. I plan on joining up there very soon.

Oh, btw...I seem to have mixed up Genbukan and Jinenkan in my original post. I always confuse the two, not sure why. I meant to say cross training in Jinenkan with Manaka, not Genbukan.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Since you've already mentioned James:

I suggest you go to his class and ask him. He's insanely good and a super nice guy. Definitely one of the best instructors out there. He lived in Japan for a few years and is a student of Nagato sensei, so he teaches in much the same way.

I've talked with him about how to train kata and was very happy with his thoughts. I suggest you go train and see what you think.

James also trains quite a bit with Noguchi-sensei, and from what I saw, was rather adept at picking up his movement. Anyone that's trained with Noguchi-sensei can tell you that when he gets on a roll, almost anyone would get lost. James kept up better than me, & I kept asking him to explain things to me. I agree, very good and very nice. I'm sure that you'll have fun if you go train with him.

 

[stephen]

James also trains quite a bit with Noguchi-sensei, and from what I saw, was rather adept at picking up his movement. Anyone that's trained with Noguchi-sensei can tell you that when he gets on a roll, almost anyone would get lost. James kept up better than me, & I kept asking him to explain things to me. I agree, very good and very nice. I'm sure that you'll have fun if you go train with him.

When James returns to Japan he, as most of us tend to do, trains as much as he can, time permitting.

 

[Highland Ninja]

Thanks, Stephen and Doc Jude. This is very encouraging news!

 

[DWeidman]

So my question is this. I've heard that Manaka (Genbukan)

Manaka runs the Jinenkan Org - not the Genbukan.

Is it possible to cross train between Bujinkan and Genbukan and not have problems?

No. It is strictly against the Genbukan rules.

Section 4 from the following document:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=692

And it is against the wishes of Hatsumi Sensei as well.

-Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think if you find a good teacher in the Bujinkan then you will be fine and enjoy your training immensely. (choose wisely) Then once you get going get to Japan and experience it from the source.

 

[Shicomm]

*irony*

It's doable if you stay unnoticed... seems like very good practice to me if you can make that happen...

> a bit more serious then...

Even if no rules about this would apply you still would end up with 2 "political environments" ... i agree to the point that you can ignore that but thats only for a while imho... sooner or later it would start to bite...

A highway can have a load of lanes ( and still have traffic jams... ) but your car can only drive properly in 1 lane at a time...

 

[Highland Ninja]

Shicomm wrote:

It's doable if you stay unnoticed... seems like very good practice to me if you can make that happen...

I'm pretty sure I could pull it off without being noticed. It'd just be a major hassle. Then again, this is ninjutsu we'rte talking about (running two separate lives, dual agent stuff, etc).

Even if no rules about this would apply you still would end up with 2 "political environments" ... i agree to the point that you can ignore that but thats only for a while imho... sooner or later it would start to bite...

I think I could avoid it being a problem, but the main problem would be time considerations.

 

[stephen]

I think I could avoid it being a problem, but the main problem would be time considerations.

Seems to me it'd be like trying to run Windows and Linux on the same box. Can be done....but why?

 

[DWeidman]

No. It is strictly against the Genbukan rules.

Section 4 from the following document:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=692

And it is against the wishes of Hatsumi Sensei as well.

-Daniel

I am quoting myself as everyone seems to be missing it.

It is EXPRESSLY forbidden.

Or did everyone miss that?

-Daniel

 

[Doc_Jude]

I certainly hope that everyone has seen what DWeidman has said about the subject. It's very important, since he may repeat himself with more regularity.
These schools have rules, and they obviously don't play well with others. You better follow the rules, or you might get a ninja visitation in the night! From two orgs even!

(tho, it might be a good thing, they may kill each other before they even get to you.)

 

[stephen]

I see this discussion as having two sides:

In a practical sense, what Dan has said is exactly true. Some organizations have written rules, some have understood rules, and some have no rules. Just like any culture/organization/group on
Earth.

In a theoretical sense there is another question of whether you would even WANT to do such a thing.

The practical question is easy and settled.

The other question can be interesting to some, as can be seen by the many who either break or bend the practical part of the equation.

 

[Highland Ninja]

I noticed that the link shows that the Genbukan under Tanemura does not allow cross training in other ninjutsu arts (ie Bukinkan, Jinenkan). However, I've not seen anything written on the Jinenkan site(s) that specifically prohibit cross training. Likewise, I can't seem to find anything written on any Bujinkan site about this.

So in the case of Bujinkan and Jinenkan, is the prohibition only being given by word of mouth, is it an actual prohibition or just a general suggestion, etc?

 

[stephen]

So in the case of Bujinkan and Jinenkan, is the prohibition only being given by word of mouth, is it an actual prohibition or just a general suggestion, etc?

So here's where the difficult part enters. Well, some find it difficult - some easy. So probably best to ask your instructors what they think and stick to that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So here's where the difficult part enters. Well, some find it difficult - some easy. So probably best to ask your instructors what they think and stick to that.

This is good advice as following your instructor's directions and guidance is always important. Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods. That is good enough for me.

 

[stephen]

This is good advice as following your instructor's directions and guidance is always important. Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods. That is good enough for me.

Totally agree. However, it seems to be a subject of much discussion on teh intrawebs.

 

[DWeidman]

I can't believe this conversation has made it to a second page.

What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?

Do you really expect to be a serious student of someone and take another "ninja" class with a different org -- and not have it show up somewhere down the road (at which point you will probably be expelled from the school - and blacklisted at all other local dojos)????

Find an instructor you like. Period. Full stop.

If you suppliment him with another instructor... both will probably know. And you will probably burn both bridges...

-Daniel

PS. Sorry this is a bit harsh... but GEEZ.... why are we even debating this?

 

[Highland Ninja]

Dweidman wrote:

What on earth do you think you will gain by training in two orgs?

The reason I even brought up the subject was because of the oft-heard complaint that in Bujinkan there is not nearly enough emphasis on the basics, whereas in Jinenkan there is not nearly as much emphasis on creativity and flow, and vice versa. I just thought that if all that were true, there should be a way to incorporate both, since they are in essence the same art. Work on perfecting your basics with one instructor, work on flow and creativity with the other.

It does seem odd to me that people are claiming that Bujinkan doesn't focus enough on basics though. Now granted, I haven't been around in awhile, but I remember when Soke sent someone named Taro Yoshikawa to one of Hayes' Ninja Festivals in Ohio back in the mid-80's because he had picture-perfect form, and Soke wanted people to be able to see that precise movement in action (got that straight from Hayes while talking to him during a break while training there that year).

Also, I noticed that the Bujinkan Shingitai-Ichi Dojo here in Chicago focuses on the basics quite extensively. From the website:

On Mondays, advanced topics are covered including the Bujinkan yearly training theme, which this year is Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. A variety of weapons are studied in the movements, including sword and jo, four-foot staff. Fridays include Kihon, fundamentals, including Sanshin no Kata, Kihon Happo, techniques from the "Bujinkan Bible" the Tenchijinryaku no Maki, and Hanbo, or 3-foot staff. All of which are the building blocks of structurally sound, substantive Taijutsu, the Bujinkan's core movement known as "body art."

So I guess I won't be missing anything after all. :ultracool

Brian wrote:

Still it is pretty clear and passed on orally by Bujinkan Shidoshi and Shihan that Soke wants us to train in the Bujinkan and follow his guidance and training methods. That is good enough for me.

Ultimately I guess that's what it comes down to. I'm a skeptic at heart after some bad experiences. But Soke is one of the very few people in any sort of training that I truly trust and believe. So I'll have to simply take Soke's word for it and train the way he says.