Soke/Head Founders Councils

[Brother John]

I'm not going to get into the whole issue of the proper use of titles, but I do see your point Matt.

You know what I DID like about Mr. Cunninghams web-site???
The pictures for one. They really show a group that's having a great time and enjoying their art.
I also like the fact that for him it's a family afair. That's a dream of mine.
I alos like the fact that he IS a civic minded person who's spent time protecting and serving. (thanks Mr. Cunningham, for your service...)
I also like that his son followed him in "Protecting and serving" as well as he did into Kenpo.

I really don't think "Dojo-busting" is needed. You not agreeing with his use of titles or what he chose to put on his web-site...... not important really.

Later...
Your Brother
John

 

[Matt Stone]

John -

I'm not "dojo busting." Dojo yaburi, an honored tradition "back east" as well as places closer to home, consists of actually going to someone's school, usually at an opportune time (like in the middle of class), and calling them out onto the mat. I never once stated, nor will I, that any given individual's physical skills are in question. Until such time as I see them in person, or better yet get a chance to suck up a punch or two, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Meijin10 brought up the issue of soke-mills. He said specifically

I hope that many in the martial arts community start to look upon these councils with a very questioning eye.

I suspect it may very likely be a case of hindsight, and that Meijin10 is now reconsidering his rather lengthy association with such questionable organizations. That is most certainly what I would hope for.

His website is a public declaration of his intent and orientation. As it stands currently, it places him firmly in the camp of those who would "network" with other "masters" in order to further their own titling to one degree or another.

I'm truthfully hoping I'll see him return to this discussion saying that he is removing all mention of such unethical entities from his website and disavowing any further interaction with them. People make mistakes, and there's no time like the present to start anew.

But sometimes a stick to the head is the only way to see your mistake. I know, since I get them all the time... Thanks for yours for showing me that at nearly 1 AM I'm being a little too bored and zealous at another person's expense. That's what brothers are for, right?

Peace.

 

[LawDog]

Just go to my organizations web site at,

www.nekick.org
click on the membeship info, how much does it cost?:ultracool
click on the Kenpo Camp link, and the cost there?:supcool:
click on the charities link, what do I do there?:supcool:
On my bio link, unlike most, everything is there.
Everthing that my group and I do is there on the web site, we hide nothing.
How man groups that you know are like this?
Thanks Brother John for your response. I am very use to the anti cop, anti vet type of comments.

 

[Matt Stone]

Just go to my organizations web site at,

www.nekick.org
click on the membeship info, how much does it cost?:ultracool
click on the Kenpo Camp link, and the cost there?:supcool:
click on the charities link, what do I do there?:supcool:
On my bio link, unlike most, everything is there.

I'll grant you that... There does seem to be full disclosure. That's a definite plus.

Everthing that my group and I do is there on the web site, we hide nothing.
How man groups that you know are like this?

Not enough, surely.

Thanks Brother John for your response. I am very use to the anti cop, anti vet type of comments.

Not sure what that's intended to imply. I didn't say anything "anti-cop," nor "anti-vet." That'd be because my father is a retired police officer, and I'm a 15 year vet of the US Army, with another 5 - 9 to go before retirement.

However, as a fellow Soldier, you and I both know that that doesn't really mean much in regards to your role as a martial arts instructor... I've seen too many other former Soldiers include it as some sort of testament to their credibility, and I've watched too many eager young seekers think it meant something when it didn't. You saw combat; I'll bow to that. However, as an Engineer, how much hand to hand combat did you participate in that directly enhanced/influenced your other training? I'm former Infantry, former Cavalry Scout, and since we carried firearms, we spent more time mastering those weapons than we did mastering the use of our hands and feet... I suspect it was the same back then, too, especially given the nature of the Combatives program at the time (the same curriculum I was forced to teach as a Drill Sergeant).

It is regrettable that you've been duped by organizations that exist for questionable reasons. I'm really, truly, sorry for that. I hope you see the futility of belonging to such groups. They bring little "honor" to those people they try to "honor."

Accept my earnest apologies for any rough comments I may have made. I respect and appreciate your service, both civil and military. Accept also my "thank you" for having done what others would not so they could continue safely in their own pursuits thanks to your sacrifices.

Peace.

:asian:

 

[LawDog]

Mr Soars,

You and I have met a few times in the past. You are referring to my senior student, P.Scott Weyant. Mr Weyant has been with me for the past 29 years. I simply gave my original senior the ability to run his own system. I do not believe that this is out of line.

 

[Brother John]

Matt-

I'm not "dojo busting." Dojo yaburi, an honored tradition "back east" as well as places closer to home

Yeah...I've not only heard of it, I've watch an atempted 'yaburi' in my hometown when I was a teenager. One guy walked in and challenged the instructor "for the school"...the instructor laughed and said "OK....but if you win, you ALSO take all of the bills and debt that comes with the school." Then the instructor began TOYING with him like a panther would play with a dead oppossum. It was Sad. The guy left with his tail between his legs in a bad way!!!

I suspect it may very likely be a case of hindsight, and that Meijin10 is now reconsidering his rather lengthy association with such questionable organizations. That is most certainly what I would hope for.

That May be the case here Matt. OR...maybe he's very satisfied with what this association does for him and his....maybe. In which case....more power too'm.

His website is a public declaration of his intent and orientation. As it stands currently, it places him firmly in the camp of those who would "network" with other "masters" in order to further their own titling to one degree or another.

Matt, I know where you are coming from....really. There are definitely those groups that exist for no other reason than mutual back patting and rank inflation...I think from what he said Meijin10 would agree with you too. But: we can't automatically assume this malignant mindset to his group off hand. There is another kind of "Networking" to be done, sharing of ideas, instruction, training concepts, business/marketing knowhow...etc. These kinds of "Networking" are very valuable and worthwhile indeed. I'd rather think the better of people that I'd not yet met nor have given me a good reason to doubt their sincerity...yet. See what I'm saying?

I'm truthfully hoping I'll see him return to this discussion saying that he is removing all mention of such unethical entities from his website and disavowing any further interaction with them. People make mistakes, and there's no time like the present to start anew.

This goes right back to what I just said: maybe we are assuming a bit too much into their intentions and motivations for having/forming and participating in this association. Maybe it wasn't a 'mistake'. Maybe it's not ever really that central to his school and those schools under him. Maybe. TRUE: These kinds of associations are highly questionable and FOR ME would come with SO many red-flags that I'd not be able to see a hand in front of my face....but that doesn't mean that I automatically can say they are "bad"; just that I'd have to look into it (if EVER) with a high degree of scepticism and caution. MAYBE he did. Seems to be a person with a good head on his shoulders. This is NOT a "Caulkins" type. Nobody untrustworthy or with a bad sense of dignity and honor could hold the positions his professional life has brought along...I'd think. Seems to me to AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for yours for showing me that at nearly 1 AM I'm being a little too bored and zealous at another person's expense. That's what brothers are for, right?

Hahahahaha....
Hey Bro.... anytime you need a 'stick to the head' to help out...
I'm yer huckleberry....
Ha!!

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo3631]

Yes sir we have met, many years ago during one of Mr. Parker's visits to New England. However your comment confuses me...

I simply gave my original senior the ability to run his own system

How can you give someone the ability of running a system you do not teach? I am sure you had some influence simply by the mere fact you taught him much of what he knew. By saying you "gave him the ability" is like saying without you he would be incapable of teaching martial arts?!? I have not met your senior student however I am sure he would be very capable of teaching with or without you. If you made this comment as a reference to tradition (asking your instructor to open a dojo, etc..) then the comment makes sense to me.

 

[LawDog]

Just simple respect/tradition between the two of us.

 

[Brother John]

Yes sir we have met, many years ago during one of Mr. Parker's visits to New England. However your comment confuses me...

How can you give someone the ability of running a system you do not teach? I am sure you had some influence simply by the mere fact you taught him much of what he knew. By saying you "gave him the ability" is like saying without you he would be incapable of teaching martial arts?!?

I don't think it's like saying that whatsoever. Seems to me to be nothing more than a respectful nod and a blessing from instructor to student for that student to break off....on good terms....and do his own thing openly.
What's wrong with that? Maybe 'giving ability' isn't the best way to put it, but from the way he explains it.... sounds good to me.

If you really think about it: that's the way it was when the Tracy's initially broke away from Mr. Parker. Or the way that Gary Swan went about things in his creation of the NCKKA.... with Mr. Parker's blessing.
Something to think about.

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo3631]

Brother John, you forgot this part of my post....

If you made this comment as a reference to tradition (asking your instructor to open a dojo, etc..) then the comment makes sense to me

Besides I was just merely posing the question because his senior student created his own system...a system different from what Meijin10 teaches I would suppose. Giving a blessing I can understand, granting ability is something endowed by our Creator. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Isn't that the very same "council" who's been lambasted all over the internet for all sorts of questionable activity?

Matt, I googled that name and did not see the "lambasting."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=World+Head+of+Family+Sokeship+Council+&btnG=Google+Search

Speaking of that org. I know some people their and do not know of anyone there that "traded their ranks between them."


As I read this thread from the beginning I sesnsed that Meijin10 was setting the stage slam the sokeships but vaditate his own association. It seems his Grandmaster IS A MEMBER OF SEVERAL OF THE BIG SOKESHIPS. :uhyeah: Do the search and he is definately associated to many.

 

[lonekimono10]

a friend of mine called me about 3 months ago and asked me if i was a part of this "soke council" he gave me the name and i went to his site and there it was my name on his site, i don't know him or what he is all about, but it happens without you knowing it.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I don't think it's like saying that whatsoever. Seems to me to be nothing more than a respectful nod and a blessing from instructor to student for that student to break off....on good terms....and do his own thing openly.
What's wrong with that? Maybe 'giving ability' isn't the best way to put it, but from the way he explains it.... sounds good to me.

If you really think about it: that's the way it was when the Tracy's initially broke away from Mr. Parker. Or the way that Gary Swan went about things in his creation of the NCKKA.... with Mr. Parker's blessing.
Something to think about.

Your Brother
John

Dear Brother John,
In regards to the Tracys parting with Mr. Parker, I don't believe that it was on "the best of terms" nor was it " a mutual parting"...As Far as the NCKKA is concerned, I thought that historically, it was Steve Labounty who founded the NCKKA and specifically asked Mr. Parker to create it BEFORE he did it and indeed get Mr. Parker's blessing for it as a "regional subdivision" of the IKKA. But it's easy enough to contact them [Labounty & Swan] and get the "rest of the story".
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[Matt Stone]

Matt, I googled that name and did not see the "lambasting."

I recall that they were discussed on the now defunct KFO, as well as on E-budo, and I thought they were discussed here about 3 or 4 years ago...

Bottom line, though they say up front they don't charge money for what they do, if you look at their application for membership (you can apply, you don't have to be nominated), they do charge for your application, most of which is non-refundable if you aren't "voted" in...

Speaking of that org. I know some people their and do not know of anyone there that "traded their ranks between them."

To be honest, anymore, I can't tell them apart without a program! If it says "soke" or "head of system" or such nonsense that is decreed by outside agencies, I just don't care to know the details.

As I read this thread from the beginning I sesnsed that Meijin10 was setting the stage slam the sokeships but vaditate his own association. It seems his Grandmaster IS A MEMBER OF SEVERAL OF THE BIG SOKESHIPS. :uhyeah: Do the search and he is definately associated to many.

I noticed that, too, which is why upthread I "outed" the husband/wife team who grant nearly anything to anyone...