Skip dan testing?

[Sporty2018]

I'm sure a few have heard of the skip dan testing last year in the US??

Anyone heard if there will be another skip test in 2018?

To all the critics... Pls withhold. We don't need to agree on politics.
I am an excellent candidate. Trained fr 30 yrs, bb over 20 of them.
Cross trained in just about everything under the sun. Been teaching a military club for a while now.

Anyone heard ? Another this year?
Missed out last year... A bit late on reg. It was full.

Thks.

 

[Headhunter]

No idea what this is but it sounds like you skip certain Dan grades so go from 1st Dan to third Dan. If that's what it is then no that's absolutely wrong in my opinion

 

[andyjeffries]

Haven't heard anything about one happening again the US. There is strong pressure on Kukkiwon to stop doing them, but unless they've silently dropped them then they'll still go ahead.

There's always the option of doing it in Korea, but the cost may be prohibitive to you (I don't know).

Also, I don't know what rank you are or how many you want to skip, but a local master/grandmaster one rank above the rank you want to jump to can recommend a single-dan skip, but to no more than 5th Dan. To skip higher than 5th Dan or skip more than one dan it has to be done by the Kukkiwon grading panel.

 

[Headhunter]

Haven't heard anything about one happening again the US. There is strong pressure on Kukkiwon to stop doing them, but unless they've silently dropped them then they'll still go ahead.

There's always the option of doing it in Korea, but the cost may be prohibitive to you (I don't know).

Also, I don't know what rank you are or how many you want to skip, but a local master/grandmaster one rank above the rank you want to jump to can recommend a single-dan skip, but to no more than 5th Dan. To skip higher than 5th Dan or skip more than one dan it has to be done by the Kukkiwon grading panel.

Wow so you really can skip Dan grades?....this is why traditional martial arts standards are going downhill. Black belt shouldn't want to skip a Dan they shouldn't care about rank at that point only their training and improving

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wow so you really can skip Dan grades?....this is why traditional martial arts standards are going downhill. Black belt shouldn't want to skip a Dan they shouldn't care about rank at that point only their training and improving

If someone meets the requirements for a grade, why does it matter whether they spent 10 years in each of the two grades prior, or 20 years in one of them?

 

[TrueJim]

Wow so you really can skip Dan grades?

In principle, skip-dan grading is supposed to be used in unusual circumstances where somebody has been unable to test for a very long period of time, so dan grades are skipped to make an appropriate correction. As an example, somebody who lives in a very remote area where for many years there was nobody available to grade them.

In practice though, the practice of skip dan grading has sometimes been abused.

this is why traditional martial arts standards are going downhill

When I was young, the grass was greener, the sky was bluer, and everybody was so much prettier.

Black belt shouldn't want to skip a Dan they shouldn't care about rank

Rank matters if you're running a school, because it determines what level you can promote your students to.

at that point only their training and improving

They should probably care about doing their taxes too. They're due pretty soon now.

 

[Headhunter]

If someone meets the requirements for a grade, why does it matter whether they spent 10 years in each of the two grades prior, or 20 years in one of them?

But there's a lot of the time they won't have met the requirements and it'll be people double grading their friends which is even worse than a single promotion

 

[TrueJim]

it'll be people double grading their friends which is even worse than a single promotion

You've correctly put your finger on the heart problem: The problem isn't necessarily skip-dan tests, it's people who abuse skip-dan tests.

But there's a lot of the time they won't have met the requirements

Playing devils advocate: what is the requirements for a Kukkiwon 6th dan vs. a Kukkiwon 4th dan -- two more poomsae? Some additional years in grade?

It seems to me that in theory a 6th dan should have a much deeper understanding of the curriculum than a 4th dan, and have should have done more to contribute to the art. But a conventional dan test is not going to confirm either of those things. On the other hand, knowing that Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years in Montana and has taught hundreds of students...I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with updating Betty's grade to reflect her level of experience and accomplishment. IMO

 

[skribs]

You've correctly put your finger on the heart problem: The problem isn't necessarily skip-dan tests, it's people who abuse skip-dan tests.



Playing devils advocate: what is the requirements for a Kukkiwon 6th dan vs. a Kukkiwon 4th dan -- two more poomsae? Some additional years in grade?

It seems to me that in theory a 6th dan should have a much deeper understanding of the curriculum than a 4th dan, and have should have done more to contribute to the art. But a conventional dan test is not going to confirm either of those things. On the other hand, knowing that Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years in Montana and has taught hundreds of students...I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with updating Betty's grade to reflect her level of experience and accomplishment. IMO

While we're on the subject, how does someone who is the highest rank in an area continue to grow?

I mean, if Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years with little to no oversight, where is her deeper understanding coming from?

(I'm genuinely curious, I'm not just trying to be facetious).

 

[TrueJim]

if Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years with little to no oversight, where is her deeper understanding coming from (I'm genuinely curious, I'm not just trying to be facetious).

I think that's a fair question. It's possible that Betty Backick hasn't grown at all. So I think anybody offering a skip-dan to Betty would need to be vigilante about making sure Betty is performing at an appropriate level.

As to where Betty got her growth...where do any of us get our growth? I am positive that my kwanjangnim is responsible for only a part of my growth -- I get some of my growth from listening to what you guys have to say*, some of my growth from attending tournaments, some from attending seminars, some from reading, some from making observations when I teach, some from my own contemplation of my technique when I practice, etc.

I attended a poomsae seminar this past weekend that blew my mind. So many new trends in sports poomsae -- so different from even a year ago. I learned more in those two days than I would have learned in months of my regular practice schedule. Spoiler: the back stance, it ain't what it used to be.

* Excluding skribs, obviously.

 

[skribs]

* Excluding skribs, obviously.

Because what I say is so far and above your level that you have no hope of including it in your training regimen?

 

[TrueJim]

Because what I say is so far and above your level that you have no hope of including it in your training regimen?

Uhhh...yah, yah! That was it!

 

[WaterGal]

In principle, skip-dan grading is supposed to be used in unusual circumstances where somebody has been unable to test for a very long period of time, so dan grades are skipped to make an appropriate correction. As an example, somebody who lives in a very remote area where for many years there was nobody available to grade them.

Yeah, we had a guy talk to us about doing one for him, because his teacher had charged him for the KKW 2nd & 3rd dan certs and just kept the money and didn't submit the paperwork to Kukkiwon. Ultimately, Mr WaterGal didn't feel like he was at a 3rd dan level of performance anyhow, and so we just did the 2nd dan for him. But, from what I understand, that would be an example of the kind of circumstance that skip dan testing is meant to correct.

 

[Buka]

I never heard of skip dan testing before this thread. I've never been skip dan tested, but I was skip dan promoted from first to third back in 84. At a big open tournament no less. My instructor at the time, Billy Blanks, was to do a big demo at the night finals, me assisting. During competition he won heavyweight and I won lightweight, we would fight in the finals. In the middle of the demo he promoted me. Ten minutes later when we fought, he whooped the dog crap out of me. At one point he swept both my legs out and up in the air I went - where he punched me in the chest as I was coming down. Hard, too, made a great thumping sound on my chest, the crowd ooohed. Thankfully, we did a lot of breakfall back then.



Best part of the story, the promoter of this tournament was the only guy I didn't get along with in the Martial world back then. We did not like each other, not even one little bit. When Billy stopped the show to promote me - I could almost hear the guy choking on the sidelines.

 

[skribs]

Yeah, we had a guy talk to us about doing one for him, because his teacher had charged him for the KKW 2nd & 3rd dan certs and just kept the money and didn't submit the paperwork to Kukkiwon. Ultimately, Mr WaterGal didn't feel like he was at a 3rd dan level of performance anyhow, and so we just did the 2nd dan for him. But, from what I understand, that would be an example of the kind of circumstance that skip dan testing is meant to correct.

That is one of the problems with the KKW system, in my opinion, is that you can have a substandard school promote you, and then you go to another school and are in way over your head.

Although I like it because it means I can go to any KKW school and be qualified at my Dan level, it's a two-way street.

 

[drop bear]

If someone meets the requirements for a grade, why does it matter whether they spent 10 years in each of the two grades prior, or 20 years in one of them?

The belt system has to mean something for the belt system to work.

 

[drop bear]

While we're on the subject, how does someone who is the highest rank in an area continue to grow?

I mean, if Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years with little to no oversight, where is her deeper understanding coming from?

(I'm genuinely curious, I'm not just trying to be facetious).

My coach has that. He cross trains. And competes.

 

[TrueJim]

The belt system has to mean something for the belt system to work.

It seems to me that what would detract from the meaning of the grace would be to NOT promote the 20-year guy by 2 grades. If (say) a 5th dan is supposed to mean that somebody has 20 years of contribution in the art, and somebody has that 20 years, then it would detract from the meaning to NOT promote them to the appropriate grade. IMO

 

[TrueJim]

While we're on the subject, how does someone who is the highest rank in an area continue to grow?

COINCIDENTALLY, somebody from HR at work mentioned this to me today:

70/20/10 Model (Learning and Development) - Wikipedia

The 70:20:10 Model for Learning and Development (also written as 70-20-10 or 70/20/10) is a learning and development model of 70% challenging assignments, 20% developmental relationships and 10% coursework and training.

Morgan McCall and his colleagues working at the Center for Creative Leadership (CCL) are usually credited with originating the 70:20:10 ratio. Two of McCall's colleagues, Michael M. Lombardo and Robert W. Eichinger, published data from one CCL study in their 1996 book The Career Architect Development Planner.[1]

Based on a survey asking nearly 200 executives to self-report how they believed they learned, McCall, Lombardo and Eichinger's surmised that:

“Lessons learned by successful and effective managers are roughly:

• 70% from challenging assignments
• 20% from developmental relationships
• 10% from coursework and training

So to skrib's question, one might argue that your kwanjangnim is really contributing only about 10% to your development. The rest of your development is from challenging assignments (e.g., running a school, coaching teams, refereeing tournaments, etc.); and developmental relationships (the peers that you glean useful insights from).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But there's a lot of the time they won't have met the requirements and it'll be people double grading their friends which is even worse than a single promotion

That is a problem. Not one I’ve seen, but one I heard about from my Judo/Shotokan instructor. Not so much an issue with skipping dans as with promotion beyond qualification.