Sinatras's way

[Manny]

Sinatra's way = My Way.

Last night I returned TKD classes, it was a vacation period but I am in dojang again, my student in all these days was under sambunim and told me the classes he was taking were kick oriented only and lots of crunches and flexibility exercises.

I am still taking care of my lower back. I did the class (and will the following ones) my way. We began with light joging and then warm up and some flexibility exercises, the class was going to be only hand techs no kicking, the drills were defending (blocking) and counter with punches most, you know ogul maki baro momtong chirugi, are makki baro montong chirugi (ap kubi sogi), then sonal makki (ti kubi) baro momtong chirugi, han sonal makki paro montong chirugi, etc,etc,etc. We did all the blocks with counterpunch.

We ended the class with crunches and a short chat on what's going on, I am going to teach my student one step sparring next class so the drills we did are one step's oriented.

It's my intention to be 50/50 (hands/kicks) on my classes, maybe not WTF oriented classes but Clasic TKD. We are not training for competition, we are not competitors (student and I).

I am not trowing away the kicking techs and drills, I just want to adjust the ratio amoung the kicks and all the other techs (elbows,knees,palm strikes,hand trust,sweeps,chokes,etc,etc) TKD has to offer.

For WTF compettion drills and sparring there are other classes in dojang but my classes will be my way or... the Sinatra's way.

Manny

 

[jthomas1600]

Manny, I think your approach is great, as long as your head instructor is on board with it. As a student I don't want anything to do with a school where there is friction between the head instructor and his staff. I don't want to feel like I'm trying to be pulled into one camp or another. I do like your no nonsense, balanced approach to the art though.

 

[puunui]

It's my intention to be 50/50 (hands/kicks) on my classes, maybe not WTF oriented classes but Clasic TKD. We are not training for competition, we are not competitors (student and I).

What is "Classic Taekwondo"? Okinawan Karate?

 

[Manny]

Manny, I think your approach is great, as long as your head instructor is on board with it. As a student I don't want anything to do with a school where there is friction between the head instructor and his staff. I don't want to feel like I'm trying to be pulled into one camp or another. I do like your no nonsense, balanced approach to the art though.

Thankyou. It seems my master does not bother leaving me to do what I am doing, his TKD aproach is more spoty orineted, the male adults clase is mine and I can teach TKD, no matter Sport TKD or or Clasic TKD. In fact, when I started with the class mi master told me that once in a while he will take care of my class and I said it was OK.

My sambonim knows my way of thinking about clasic TKD and knows I love self defense.

Manny

 

[Manny]

What is "Classic Taekwondo"? Okinawan Karate?

Nop. I call Classic TKD the old school TKD (1980's). This is to diferentiate it from Sport TKD (aka WTF Style TKD).

Sport TKD is tournaments oriented, the training is more kicking, too much cardio, kicking drills (sport). In clasic TKD I emphatice the use of hands,kicks, an other parts of the body and it's self defense oriented (one and three steps sparring, Ho Si Sul, Kyumpa, and Free sparring (not necesary WTF Sparring)).

Manny

 

[puunui]

Nop. I call Classic TKD the old school TKD (1980's). This is to diferentiate it from Sport TKD (aka WTF Style TKD).

Why do you call Taekwondo from the 1980's to be Classic Taekwondo? "WTF style Taekwondo" was already developed in the 1980's.

 

[RobinTKD]

i think he means ITF style taekwondo, as the ITF was founded before the WTF.

 

[Manny]

Why do you call Taekwondo from the 1980's to be Classic Taekwondo? "WTF style Taekwondo" was already developed in the 1980's.

Because I began TKD in 1983. In that time the TKD class was estructured towards self defense/martial art and the kyorugi we practiced wasn't WTF at all (no hands to the face for example, no hogu, no helmet,just a groin cup and maybe shin pads).

In those theys we train hard on the techs (not only kicking) we train hard on poomsae and we did full sparring without the armor the competitors use today.

We used to do palgwes till 1987 wehn we change to taeguks.

Training was diferent, that's why I call it Classic Tae Kwon Do, even those days the word Korean karate was used, Tae Kwon Do sounded funny and not everyone got it.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why do you call Taekwondo from the 1980's to be Classic Taekwondo? "WTF style Taekwondo" was already developed in the 1980's.

When I hear someone say 'classic taekwondo' I think of what Manny described above. I studied in the eighties and while WTF sparring existed, it was not in the olympics yet. Myself and people I knew who studied at other schools all would have had similar descriptions to what Manny described.

Perhaps such schools were out of compliance, even for the time period, but they had probably been teaching their classes in such a format from some point in the early to mid seventies. We sparred with very little gear; a mouth piece, a cup, and maybe gloves.

More than likely, such schools were essentially doing 'Korean karate' with taekwondo forms. Which may not have been in compliance, but it is what many of us remember. That is probably the root of many of the sport vs. art arguements.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

When I hear someone say 'classic taekwondo' I think of what Manny described above. I studied in the eighties and while WTF sparring existed, it was not in the olympics yet. Myself and people I knew who studied at other schools all would have had similar descriptions to what Manny described.

Perhaps such schools were out of compliance, even for the time period, but they had probably been teaching their classes in such a format from some point in the early to mid seventies. We sparred with very little gear; a mouth piece, a cup, and maybe gloves.

More than likely, such schools were essentially doing 'Korean karate' with taekwondo forms. Which may not have been in compliance, but it is what many of us remember. That is probably the root of many of the sport vs. art arguements.

Daniel

I have to agree with all of that Daniel. What Manny describes is exactly what our club does to this day. Basically when everything changed we just stopped evolving, I suppose some would say that is to our detriment. I have to say though, Ive heard many of our students and onlookers refer to what we do as 'old school' tkd or 'classic' tkd so I know exactly where Manny is coming from.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have to agree with all of that Daniel. What Manny describes is exactly what our club does to this day. Basically when everything changed we just stopped evolving, I suppose some would say that is to our detriment.

Detriment? I would say no. Schools that teach in that fashion serve a need that a more mainstream or compliant school does not. There are people who want to attend that style of school. Not most people, but enough that such schools stick around.

The customer that that type of school attracts will have little to no interest in something different. Chances are such schools have a mostly adult customer base who are primarily concerned with training in a manner consistent with the western perception of what 'traditional' martial arts are and who are primarily concerned with self defense.

These sorts of schools generally have good retention because the kwanjang has been doing it for a very long time and is good at it, usually having a core of very skilled seniors who either will take or in some cases, already have taken the reigns of the school when the kwanjang passes away or otherwise is unable to continue instructing.

The more mainstream or compliant schools better serve a much broader range of people and are more inclusive of children.

Personally, I don't see one as being better than the other; each serves different needs.

Daniel

 

[jthomas1600]

I agree with every thing Daniel said which is why I think it's great what Manny is doing as long as the head instructor is OK with it. I would love it if the "mainstream more compliant" school where I train would start offering a more hard core/traditional class twice a week or so. I would definitely make it a priority to include that class in my training. Actually I think we might be on our way there as we recently have started an adults only class once a week. I'm hopeful anyway.

 

[Manny]

When I hear someone say 'classic taekwondo' I think of what Manny described above. I studied in the eighties and while WTF sparring existed, it was not in the olympics yet. Myself and people I knew who studied at other schools all would have had similar descriptions to what Manny described.

Perhaps such schools were out of compliance, even for the time period, but they had probably been teaching their classes in such a format from some point in the early to mid seventies. We sparred with very little gear; a mouth piece, a cup, and maybe gloves.

More than likely, such schools were essentially doing 'Korean karate' with taekwondo forms. Which may not have been in compliance, but it is what many of us remember. That is probably the root of many of the sport vs. art arguements.

Daniel

Yeap, korean karate with palgwe poomsae, in fact we sparr without safety gear, I got my firsth shin pads when I was green belt and I used nothing else, not even a cup.

The kyorugi was feinting and delivering hard blows and kicks,cero hoping (smlall jumps),cero holding (embracing), it was really nice.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Because I began TKD in 1983. In that time the TKD class was estructured towards self defense/martial art and the kyorugi we practiced wasn't WTF at all (no hands to the face for example, no hogu, no helmet,just a groin cup and maybe shin pads).

I trained before you started and back then, we had hogus, maybe cup (but never in class) and sometimes shin and/or forearm guards, but no helmet. And the hogu had bamboo in them, which was incredibly painful to kick. Hogus have been around since the very early 60's. What you describe is Taekwondo from the 1950's, not 80's. Here is an example:

I like to wax nostalgic as much as anyone, but please don't tell me this is superior to what we have today.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I agree with every thing Daniel said which is why I think it's great what Manny is doing as long as the head instructor is OK with it. I would love it if the "mainstream more compliant" school where I train would start offering a more hard core/traditional class twice a week or so. I would definitely make it a priority to include that class in my training. Actually I think we might be on our way there as we recently have started an adults only class once a week. I'm hopeful anyway.

You'd be surprised how big a market there is out there for "classic" tkd. A guy I met the other day was saying how he has always wanted to get into MA and so he joined the local tkd club which is just up the road from us and your typical 'new age' tkd club, he lasted 1 month and has now started krav maga. He said all he did at the tkd club was kicking, he did a couple of punches but said all in all it had very little emphasis on 'real' self defence and the sparring encouraged high kicks and no use of the hands and the word "competition" came up a lot more than he would have liked. I told him about where I train and he got very excited and is coming along for a trial lesson next week. I applaud what you are trying to do manny because too many people are having similar experiences to the friend of mine and then they go and tell anyone who will listen about how tkd his just a sport these days with no real emphasis on how to defend yourself. As Ive said before, I have no problem with "sport" tkd and I admire their athleticism and endurance, but there is a whole other side of tkd out there and that is what many people are looking for. I think it speaks volumes that the club where I train has thousands of members yet does little to no advertising at all. there is a huge market out there for "old school" martial arts.

 

[puunui]

I have no problem with "sport" tkd and I admire their athleticism and endurance, but there is a whole other side of tkd out there and that is what many people are looking for. I think it speaks volumes that the club where I train has thousands of members yet does little to no advertising at all. there is a huge market out there for "old school" martial arts.

You mean like this:

Personally, I rather have this, but that's just me:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You mean like this:

Personally, I rather have this, but that's just me:

Yes, definetely the first one for me. As Ive said, I admire olympic tkd, but its just not for me. It comes down to whether you want a martial sport or a martial art. For instance, if joining the police force over here you are encouraged to take up a martial art to help with being able to do your job and at the police academy they actually advise against doing olympic style tkd, there is a reason for this. Just as if your son/daughter is looking for a fun, competitive sport that could take them all the way to the olympics then an 'old school' tkd club would not suit. Neither is better than the other, they just have an emphasis on different things.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I trained before you started and back then, we had hogus, maybe cup (but never in class) and sometimes shin and/or forearm guards, but no helmet. And the hogu had bamboo in them, which was incredibly painful to kick. Hogus have been around since the very early 60's. What you describe is Taekwondo from the 1950's, not 80's. Here is an example:

I like to wax nostalgic as much as anyone, but please don't tell me this is superior to what we have today.

Not a question of superior or inferior. Just a difference of taste. Some people prefer that. Some people prefer what we have today. Different strokes for different folks.

Most of the guys and gals who wax nostalgic about karate-like taekwondo either learned karate-like taekwondo in the states in the seventies or early eighties, or learned from someone who did. Now, these very likely were not Kukki schools or were out of compliance.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You mean like this:

Personally, I rather have this, but that's just me:

I can appreciate both. We all have our preferences, though frequently, the decision is made for us to some extent based on what is in our area. If I were starting fresh today, I'd be at a Jinnenkan Taijutsu school because it is convenient and the instructor is quite good.

But I started fresh in the mid seventies and the nearest school was a Jhoon Rhee Self Defense school about a half hour away. So that's where I ended up.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

We all have our preferences, though frequently, the decision is made for us to some extent based on what is in our area.

There was not a whole lot of information out there as far as Korean Martial Arts went or any martial arts really. Also the second generation teachers that came flooding in seemed only able to teach up to a certain point and then it was on you if you wanted to improve. And if someone came up with something, then tended to keep it to themselves back then. That was one of the reasons why I started buying books, magazines and videos. I didn't want to be like everyone else, and there were seniors ahead of me that I wanted/needed to pass. I was constantly looking for an edge. Finally, it got to the point where I had to move or travel in order to grow. But you do what you got to do. Today, we spoon feed our students, give them positive reinforcement, and all the things that perhaps we didn't get when we were their level. We all give much more technical information and instruction than we ever received ourselves.

I just had lunch yesterday with one of my direct seniors and he told me this story about how he visited Chae Dae (Korean Physical Education University) and said that half the students there was sitting down watching or walked off the mat during class to go to the medical trainer. He looked at the coach in disbelief and the coach told him "Hyung, it's not the same when we were their age, we would never walk off unless we had a broken bone, and even then we would beg to be allowed to practice, because we didn't want to fall behind."

Kids are different today. They are lazy and show up with attitudes. That, along with everything else that is going on at the moment makes me seriously wonder what the future holds for the martial arts.