Simple site launched to help educate on pronunciation

[Anarax]

The purpose of language is to communicate. When two people are communicating and both know exactly what the other person is saying and means then that's successful communication. I can approach it one of two ways. 1) I can have seamless communication with someone and pronounce the words we both know and understand, or 2) be a stickler and "correct" every Latin, Greek, German and Arabic rooted word they use and tell them they are pronouncing them "incorrectly".

 

[Gnarlie]

The purpose of language is to communicate.

Agreed. The problem arises when a native speaker of the language no longer understands what is being said. The limit of intelligibility has then been reached.

This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.

Applying that same principle to 8 out of 10 Taekwondo terms used in a typical dojang, and it can be quite difficult for Koreans to understand what the heck we are talking about.

I've yet to meet a non-Korean Taekwondoin who can actually pronounce even the numbers one to ten correctly so that they are intelligible to a Korean native speaker.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Anarax]

Agreed. The problem arises when a native speaker of the language no longer understands what is being said. The limit of intelligibility has then been reached.

This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.

Applying that same principle to 8 out of 10 Taekwondo terms used in a typical dojang, and it can be quite difficult for Koreans to understand what the heck we are talking about.

I've yet to meet a non-Korean Taekwondoin who can actually pronounce even the numbers one to ten correctly so that they are intelligible to a Korean native speaker.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?

 

[Dirty Dog6]

Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?

Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.

 

[Gnarlie]

Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?

At their first contact with a Korean trainer, then yes, it will matter. Not teaching students the correct pronunciation of Korean terminology is doing them a disservice if they later decide to take their training more seriously and travel to Korea.

In the age of the Internet it's not exactly difficult to find out how the words should sound. Making the sounds correctly and being able to differentiate between what to us are similar sounds is more difficult.

I guess it just depends on a person's own appetite for foreign languages and 'correctness'.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Anarax]

Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.

I disagree. That means that everyone should say "empty hand" oppose to pronouncing it karate and create confusion? The most difficult thing in all of this is where to you draw the line? It means pronounce everything with the original pronunciation or pronounce it where people will understand what you mean. I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.

 

[Anarax]

At their first contact with a Korean trainer, then yes, it will matter. Not teaching students the correct pronunciation of Korean terminology is doing them a disservice if they later decide to take their training more seriously and travel to Korea.

If they travel to Korea wouldn't they want to learn more than a few TKD terms before going there? If an non native English speaker traveled to an American boxing gym and pronounced rope a dope "incorrectly" I doubt people would think he lacked commitment or was less of a student. Even with "incorrect" pronunciation I'm sure a Korean teacher will know what you mean. I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.

This is my personal approach. I'm not sure it's universal, though, DD. I think a lot of folks are quite comfortable with the Korean (or Japanese, or Chinese, etc.) terms, however they are pronounced, so long as everyone in the room understands them.

 

[Anarax]

This is my personal approach. I'm not sure it's universal, though, DD. I think a lot of folks are quite comfortable with the Korean (or Japanese, or Chinese, etc.) terms, however they are pronounced, so long as everyone in the room understands them.

I try to pronounce the terms as close as an American can . I'm not against the "correct" pronunciation, but I am against when someone criticizes others because they feel they are ruining something or being disrespectful by not pronouncing it perfectly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I try to pronounce the terms as close as an American can . I'm not against the "correct" pronunciation, but I am against when someone criticizes others because they feel they are ruining something or being disrespectful by not pronouncing it perfectly.

You seem very tied up in this being an overbearing thing. The whole tone of the site the OP put up is fairly light and respectful. He used the word "ruin" once, in what I interpreted as a half-tongue-in-cheek way. You've posted over and over about that use of the word and what you perceive as his arrogance and disrespect. It's not nearly that bad, man.

 

[Steve]

Is this discussion making us smarter or dumber? just taking a quick pulse check here.

 

[Anarax]

You seem very tied up in this being an overbearing thing. The whole tone of the site the OP put up is fairly light and respectful. He used the word "ruin" once, in what I interpreted as a half-tongue-in-cheek way. You've posted over and over about that use of the word and what you perceive as his arrogance and disrespect. It's not nearly that bad, man.

I was making counter-arguments to the overall concept of mispronunciation, not only his post. Some people I have trained with thought that it was disrespectful to mispronounce terms, I stated why I disagreed with the overall concept of it. I don't think he's been disrespectful nor has he called anyone disrespectful. He more so sounds annoyed by it.

 

[Martial D]

So you pronounce taekwondo like AM-air-a-doe-tay?

Thanks for the lesson, I've been doing it wrong!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is this discussion making us smarter or dumber? just taking a quick pulse check here.

Of that, I'm not certain, Steve. Parts of it are intellectually engaging. Other parts, not so much.

 

[Gnarlie]

If they travel to Korea wouldn't they want to learn more than a few TKD terms before going there?

Not necessarily, and that's the point of using Korean terminology in the first place - it allows Taekwondoin to at least train together even if the don't fully speak each other's languages. They have a basic shared vocabulary in Korean.

If an non native English speaker traveled to an American boxing gym and pronounced rope a dope "incorrectly" I doubt people would think he lacked commitment or was less of a student.

Not the same - there is much more bandwidth in English before intelligibility is lost.

Even with "incorrect" pronunciation I'm sure a Korean teacher will know what you mean.

How sure are you? My Korean pronunciation is relatively good, and I have spent a lot of time on it. My Korean friends don't always understand what I mean. Sometimes they correct my pronunciation in a way where I can't even hear a difference. That's the problem.

I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.

I doubt very much that a native Korean used incorrect pronunciation deliberately. More likely is that the students in his class were not able to hear the difference and he never corrected it.


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not the same - there is much more bandwidth in English before intelligibility is lost.

Out of purely intellectual curiosity, can you expound on this?

How sure are you? My Korean pronunciation is relatively good, and I have spent a lot of time on it. My Korean friends don't always understand what I mean. Sometimes they correct my pronunciation in a way where I can't even hear a difference. That's the problem.

How old were you when you started working on it? There's some evidence that we stop being able to learn to hear/distinguish new phonemes (parts of words) after our late teens. I have this problem when my wife tries to teach me Russian sounds. There's one that sounds to me very much like the sound in the French word for "eye" (<<oeil>>), but she insists that sound isn't all that close. This is why people can come to the US in their 30's, and 40 years later still have a heavy accent in their English.

 

[TrueJim]

Out of purely intellectual curiosity, can you expound on this?

(Stealing liberally from Wikipedia here...)

I suspect that Gnarlie's referring to the fact that there's a lot of redundancy in English, on multiple levels. Here's one example:

• That man is a soldier.
• Those men are soldiers.

In the second sentence, plurality is indicated in three different ways: (1) men/men (2) is/are (3) soldier/soldiers. A less redundant language would express the second sentence as something like "That man is soldiers" and still be grammatically correct. This means you can make multiple mistakes in English and still be understood. The redundancy in English is so extreme that you can even words out and people still understand what you mean. Do people realize that even punctuation marks are a form of redundancy. And dno't get me setratd on our atiliby to raed selbmarcd secnetnes.

Also, at the level of phonemes, English phonemes always differ in multiple ways, so that even if you get one or two ways "wrong" the other differences in the phonemes are still enough of an indicator for a listener to distinguish the phonemes. For example the way the sounds /p/ and /b/ are pronounced in English use different voicing, aspiration, and muscular tension. The corresponding sounds in other languages might differ only in voicing, for example, or only in aspiration, making precise pronunciation more crucial.

There's some evidence that we stop being able to learn to hear/distinguish new phonemes (parts of words) after our late teens.

When I took anthropology class in college, we were taught that humans can't learn new vowel sounds past about 8 months of age. There's a famous experiment where a woman gave infants treats when she pronounced the sound "oh" rather than the sound "oh" (the two vowels sound the same to you and me). Before month 9 infants were able to learn to distinguish the two "oh" sounds -- but after month 9 they couldn't. (The woman was an Inuit; the Inuit apparently have subtle shades of "oh" sounds.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

(Stealing liberally from Wikipedia here...)

I suspect that Gnarlie's referring to the fact that there's a lot of redundancy in English, on multiple levels. Here's one example:

• That man is a soldier.
• Those men are soldiers.

In the second sentence, plurality is indicated in three different ways: (1) men/men (2) is/are (3) soldier/soldiers. A less redundant language would express the second sentence as something like "That man is soldiers" and still be grammatically correct. This means you can make multiple mistakes in English and still be understood. The redundancy in English is so extreme that you can even words out and people still understand what you mean. Do people realize that even punctuation marks are a form of redundancy.

Yeah, many languages lack articles - it's something I've never managed to understand in Russian. And don't get me started on their foolishly loose approach to the past tense! Oh, and you missed the that/those cue.

And dno't get me setratd on our atiliby to raed selbmarcd secnetnes.

Especially when the start and and letters are correct - an interesting effect I've not heard a great explanation for yet.

Also, at the level of phonemes, English phonemes always differ in multiple ways, so that even if you get one or two ways "wrong" the other differences in the phonemes are still enough of an indicator for a listener to distinguish the phonemes. For example the way the sounds /p/ and /b/ are pronounced in English use different voicing, aspiration, and muscular tension. The corresponding sounds in other languages might differ only in voicing, for example, or only in aspiration, making precise pronunciation more crucial.

I hadn't thought of that.

When I took anthropology class in college, we were taught that humans can't learn new vowel sounds past about 8 months of age. There's a famous experiment where a woman gave infants treats when she pronounced the sound "oh" rather than the sound "oh" (the two vowels sound the same to you and me). Before month 9 infants were able to learn to distinguish the two "oh" sounds -- but after month 9 they couldn't. (The woman was an Inuit; the Inuit apparently have subtle shades of "oh" sounds.)

That is apparently true of some sounds, though in general children in their early years can become essentially native speakers of a new language. The later into their teens they get, the less likely they are to develop native pronunciation. Perhaps it is more of an issue with vowel sounds than with consonants, because in most languages there's a bit of "give" in how vowel sounds are heard as "right" (more variability between similar dialects). The consonants seem to be the hard part. Learning the French "r" and "ble" sounds seem particularly hard for American adults to pick up, but kids (and even teens) seem to do okay. And of course there's the common issue for some Asians learning English with the "l" and "r" sounds.

 

[Buka22]

Working with the public on a daily basis gives some interesting observations. Especially concerning language. Certain words aren't used any more, apparently becoming passée. While newer terms have become accepted because of everyday usage.

What I've noticed, and it's about as subtle as a baseball bat, is parents no longer use the word "no" with their children. And, from what I've seen over the last year, it isn't limited to any one country or ethnic background.

But it's probably okay. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[andyjeffries]

This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.

My favourite is people mispronouncing Taebaek as more like Daebak (slightly harder start and not identical vowel sounds). That changes the meaning from the name of a South Korean mountain to the slang for "awesome!".

I've yet to meet a non-Korean Taekwondoin who can actually pronounce even the numbers one to ten correctly so that they are intelligible to a Korean native speaker.

I look forward to meeting you one day ;-) Seriously though, as I've been learning Korean for 3 years I'd hope to be able to achieve at least that :-D