Simple site launched to help educate on pronunciation

[Anarax]

And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.

Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up on

 

[Steve]

Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up on

I don’t know, man. I’ve never had the impression he’s pretentious. Well, no more than any other Brit. Seriously, I didn’t read this as pretentious at all. Just a pet peeve being addressed.

 

[Anarax]

The issue is mostly one of whether we're talking about an English word borrowed from Korean (a loan word), or a Korean word. At some point it ceases to be the latter and becomes the former. Until that time, the technically correct pronunciation is from the original language. After that point, the new host language has its own correct pronunciation.

I do agree with you to a certain extent. Considering how many Tae-Kwon-Do(Yes I am pronouncing it the "incorrect" way when I type it) schools are in the US and how big it's grown, I think it doesn't matter a whole lot. I think pronouncing it the way he's saying to English speakers would just create confusion. I used the Karate example in an earlier post, at some point it's so ingrained in our culture we pronounce it our own way. If I were to pronounce it Kara-Te most people wouldn't know what I'm talking about and I would have to explain it to someone who most likely doesn't care. Decimate was technically used "incorrectly" for the longest time, until it's definition was changed to be the "incorrect" meaning. I'm going to correct my friends the next time we go to Karaoke and say "guys it's pronounced kara-oke, because in Japanese Kara means empty and oke means orchestra". After that I will never have to worry about correcting them ever again, because I will never be invited to go out with them again.

 

[Steve]

This thread reminds me of the old “inconsiderate cellphone man” video shown at movie theaters.

The specific line is at :17 seconds. “It’s pronounced karatay.”

 

[Buka]

I have a heavy Boston accent, which, over the years, has been slightly accentuated with pidgen - more with it's cadence than it's details. I pronounce every God damn thing wrong, at least according to some. Yet, everyone I speak to somehow understands what I'm saying. Some of the folks who taught me Tae-kwon-do had heavy accents from various parts of the country/world, both in English and in Korean.
Yet, I understood. I think so, anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I find interesting is how strongly some folks reacted to this, which the OP presented in a fairly straightforward and unobtrusive manner. I pronounce most Asian martial arts terms closer to their original language than most folks I know (though I’m sure Taekwondo isn’t the only one I’ve been getting wrong). And people who know the terms never seem to have trouble following me. Nor I them. I tend to agree with the OP’s intent of encouraging the original pronunciation, but rarely find it useful to correct an individual, unless it is one of my students.

 

[jobo]

Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".

but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it, but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.

i find it amusing hat someone who never fails to argue the defintion of a word being discussed, should take the view that defintions are advisory and you can use any defintion you like.

Il remind you of that next time you tell me my defintion is incorrect

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it, but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.

...

Il remind you of that next time you tell me my definition is incorrect

You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).

i find it amusing hat someone who never fails to argue the definition of a word being discussed, should take the view that definitions are advisory and you can use any definition you like.

I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.

 

[jobo]

You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).


I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.

but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!

Actually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).

So, nope.

 

[jobo]

Actually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).

So, nope.

humbugs

 

[Gerry Seymour]

humbugs

So, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.

 

[jobo]

So, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.

no it was you ignoring your over whelming desire to prove yourself correct, that is humbug, its more self deception that's your issue

 

[Gnarlie]

I find correct pronunciation of Korean terms is important if:

a) Korean terminology is used as the main name for techniques in class

And

b) You have contact with Koreans as part of your training

For instructors of both WTF competitors and KKW practitioners, these will both be true to some degree, and it lies within the instructor's remit to get it right IMO.

For other organisations, they can continue to practise Tiegook Pil Chong without really doing any harm.

Jim, I know what you mean. Shirt. Kanye. C-shock.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Gnarlie]

On the other hand I have heard Koreans mispronounce German and English too, so...

"I like Chunitsel" (schnitzel)

and

"We visit the Poke Billiejean" (Folk Village)

For example.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

Question. What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent. I mean, you foreigners talk funny. Hell, most Americans talk funny, too. I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language. But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?

I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Question. What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent. I mean, you foreigners talk funny. Hell, most Americans talk funny, too. I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language. But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?

I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.

That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.

 

[jobo]

Question. What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent. I mean, you foreigners talk funny. Hell, most Americans talk funny, too. I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language. But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?

I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.

its a good point, there is a significant cross over, dependent on the letter sounds you learn as a child, i can't with out stopping my self and concentrating say bottle, it comes out botull, that's the local pronunciation, i have with practise learned to stop dropping letters and slow down my speach, whilst still keeping my accent to some extent, but only for the reason that people in London couldn't understand me at all, when back in my home town in some rough pub, i revert to my original speech patterns, id get punch for being a posh boy other wise

. I worked for a short while in darkest Liverpool, just 40 miles away, i couldn't for months understand a word they said, my ear got attuned to it eventually, i could even understand brookside.

the purpose is to be able to communicate, if how you say it achieves that, then its pinikity to start insisting that people talk how YOU want, if i went to the Korean take away and started pointing out all there funny ways of speaking English, i would most likely be reported for racial harassment, that's much the same as a Korean speaker correcting how i say taekwondo . If they understand the words that should be enough, i shouldnt be expected to learn whole new sounds just to please them

 

[Steve]

That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.

You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.

Yeah, that's was kinda my point. There's right and wrong pronunciation, and not much of universal agreement on what the hell those things mean.