Shouldn't This Stuff Hurt?

[dancingalone]

I'm sharing another anecdote for discussion.

I am used to permitting and even enforcing a certain level of contact at my private karate dojo. It started out as an fast-paced class for people who really want to learn high level karate, so the cultural assumption is that if we don't leave class without a certain amount of discomfort, whether from exercise or from taking a few raps from each other, it wasn't a good class. So for example, when we practice our promise kumite (1 or 3 or 5 step sparring or even longer sets), we snap our blocks and we land our counters on the body of our partner with a little bit of force to it. It hurts a bit. It's supposed to.

Jump to another of my other teaching situations which I've mentioned numerous times here. The students here aren't as hardcore which is fine by me. They practice their one steps a bit too slow for my taste, but I am granting allowances considering everyone is a newbie to training MA. Counters are done in the air, truncating a couple of inches from the attacker, and any blocks are performed in soft manner incapable of producing bruising even though these are nominally supposed to the hard style blocks taught to beginners. This is just how the other instructors teach - it is what they are used to.

I am just curious what everyone thinks. Is it inappropriate to gradually increase the contact level such that bruising does occur? Keep in mind we do have children in the classes. I forgot myself a few weeks ago as I was pairing with an adult student and I snapped an upper block with my usual gusto. He visibly flinched and he was a lot more tentative for the rest of the drill. My fault.

 

[Blindside]

Are you guest instructing or is this a regular class that you will be holding?

I would say that if you were just a guest for one or two classes, keep the contact the same, but if this is going to be a regular occurance go ahead and make it the "hard core" class for that school. Nothing wrong with getting a bit of a rep that way, you will attract the students that are willing to do the work/pain.

 

[terryl965]

dancingalone this is a very tricky problem because of the venue you teach in, so let me ask a few question what does the church says about hardcore MA? Have you even taken the time to discuss this with them? Can you have the whole pie and eat it too, what I mean can you divide the classes so you cna teach both styles?

There is nothing wrong with bringing some people up in time, not everyone can come in and adapt to hardcore training. Next thing is simple do the customers want it? If so they have spoken and it is up to you to deliver.

 

[ATC]

Because these are beginners and people not use to contact at any level, you may have to be a little more understanding and have a very gradual approach. There may be more explanations by yourself in regards to why blocks are strikes and not just blocks as they may think of a block. Just by doing this some will give a little more effort, and once use to some level of discomfort they will then put even more effort.

The more you explain things thoroughly the more they will understand and do. Also you cannot just expect one explanation to be enough, You should find yourself reminding them of the same stuff over and over.

But yes, they should be conditioning their bodies during training as well. But remember it is a process.

 

[Manny]

In kenpo classes we call this Love Touch or Pain Inoculation. Love Touch because we must to get used to this pain care and Pain Inoculation cause we want to be injected with a little pain so in the next clases the dosis could be a little higer without so much disconfort.

I think the drills must be with a little of force and then escalate little by little, offcouse there are some folks who get this and they enjoy the light to hard contact.

When I do SD or steps sparring I tend to use such force that is bareable, not to much but not too little and then increase little by little.

Offcourse it could be some people who maybe get disconfort for this but we must remeber MA is about contact, sometimes hard contact, I have sufer for this in the past and this never detractame for leaving TKD.

Terry gives you good advises follow them.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

dancingalone this is a very tricky problem because of the venue you teach in, so let me ask a few question what does the church says about hardcore MA? Have you even taken the time to discuss this with them? Can you have the whole pie and eat it too, what I mean can you divide the classes so you cna teach both styles?

It's one of those cognitive dissonance situations. Everyone agrees that the participants should come out of the experience with some useful self-defense skills, especially the women and the children. Yet sparring is optional, and I know if we started having some regular injuries during training, that would be frowned upon.

We want to train hard and effectively, yet we aren't quite ready mentally to pay the price for it if that makes sense.

And no it's not possible to have 2 different classes simultaneously for a number of reasons, nor would I want to have them. I think an important part of the experience we offer is the opportunity for families to train together in a spiritually supportive fashion.

There is nothing wrong with bringing some people up in time, not everyone can come in and adapt to hardcore training. Next thing is simple do the customers want it? If so they have spoken and it is up to you to deliver.

Actually, no one has asked for a more intense training experience. This is just the old dinosaur in me musing about the different types of excellence we can target and train for.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good discussion dancingalone. I am still not sure how much contact is necessary/unnecessary when training in martial arts. On one hand I can fully understand that students need to learn what its like to hit and get hit and that conditioning is a part of martial arts. On the other hand I can fully understand that some people dont want to be covered in bruises. My wife trains at the same club I do and she hates getting bruises on her legs and arms, she bruises easily and I can understand that a young woman doesnt want to walk around in life covered in bruises. I run a business and its not a good look talking to potential clientel with a black eye or busted cheekbone. I really dont have any answers and its a topic that is debated adnauseum by martial artists everywhere. We generally have very light contact until blue belt, then sparring is compulsory and the contact goes up a notch and when black belts spar it is full contact and the two students can agree to go harder if they wish. We have some black belts who like to spar really hard and so when they partner up with someone who also likes to go hard they can but they are not offended by those who hold back a notch for whatever reason.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Good topic. IMNSHO no easy answer. Discomfort, OK. Anything that requires medical attention or has a lastingeffect or visible sign some 48 hours later, not OK. That type of thing will have a cumalitive effect over the decades.

Further, the same level of intensity applied to some individuals will be OK for some and not for others.

Growing children should have less. Women over 40 and men over 50 should have less.

Smaller people should have less than larger people. This is particularly difficult for some larger people to appreciate. Example 180lb fit adult male vs 120lb person.

That 180lb male would have to face a fit 270lb male to appreciate the size difference.

 

[harlan]

Think 'TKD' and then 'karate'. I think there is a definite 'culture of expectations' associated with each label, and that people 'join', or are attracted to, styles of martial arts that conform to those nebulous, preformed expectations. As practicioners, we are already immersed in the 'culture' of a chosen art, and the lines blur when trying to view another style.

What I've seen of the popular local, American, TKD is a split in training: 'no contact' before black belt. Up until then, sparring is done with protection and the primary goal being control. SD techniques are done to a 'comfort level'.

You say 'hard', but 'hard' is a relative term; what you consider hard might be very different from what was going on in karate dojo's a generation ago. :0

 

[Stac3y]

I don't consider blocking bruises to be "hardcore." Even repetitious light contact can cause them. I've always thought bruises were just a natural part of all contact sports. If a student needs to avoid facial bruises due to work, etc., s/he can always wear headgear with a face shield. Long sleeves and pants cover the ones on arms and legs. I will admit that I've had to let my doctor know about my hobby, or he might have called Adult Protective Services. All part of the game, IMO.

 

[dancingalone]

So I take it most of us would be fine with children as young as 8 blocking with sufficient force to bruise each other? Take it one step further: is it OK to demand it as an instructor (disregard my location issue for purposes of discussion - this really isn't about me).

 

[StudentCarl]

This is interesting in part because your venue likely leads to some different expectations of people coming through your door compared to a traditional MA setting. I think you're safe with some general guidelines you likely already use:

1. Communicate more than normal about contact force. I think it's okay to accept less contact to start with, and emphasize quality of technique instead. However, I think it's also good to teach that you apply techniques in the real world the way you practice them...so in the long term, anyone who wants to be prepared to use techniques for real will need to increase power over time.

2. When doing any kind of partner training, it's appropriate for partners to talk and agree on what level of force they will use. Teaching your students this will help them manage their own training to meet their goals. One guy I partner with is 56 and has some back problems, so we're a little more controlled with some things to focus on technique rather than power.

3. I think a progressive approach can be built into the curriculum so that a little more contact is expected at each level. That still leaves room for you to individualize. For someone in the upper colored belt ranks, some level of ability to take a hit is certainly reasonable...but you'll have had the student on board for quite a while by then.

4. Equipment has a place, depending on what's available to you. For instance, we used MT mitts last night practicing blocks at full power. Forearm bruising isn't required to train blocks.

 

[StudentCarl]

So I take it most of us would be fine with children as young as 8 blocking with sufficient force to bruise each other? Take it one step further: is it OK to demand it as an instructor (disregard my location issue for purposes of discussion - this really isn't about me).

We avoid much of that in partner blocking training because some kids will develop a flinch. When doing sparring training, the kids wear pads. 8 year old white/yellow/green belts--stick with building technique and using pads or mitts. 8 year old higher belts have been around 2+ years and both the kids and their parents are okay with some bruising.

Demand it? Again, I think it's individual and progressive.

 

[terryl965]

So I take it most of us would be fine with children as young as 8 blocking with sufficient force to bruise each other? Take it one step further: is it OK to demand it as an instructor (disregard my location issue for purposes of discussion - this really isn't about me).

To put it in a simple way YES! You are the instructor and thus it is your rules and way, but remember we must have compassion as well for the group as a whole and I know you do.

 

[dortiz]

In its pure essence right here is that mystery line we all keep talking about. TKD as a real self defense or not. Most schools just dont get to any real point anymore for lots of good reasons but here again is that critical point. The point of real. Over technique the point of REAL is what makes better fighters.
Thats why guys that roll feel instantly more comfortable defending themselves because they knock around a bit. Any guy or gal that plays a bit harder and starts to feel their techniques and where they work will become 3-1000 times more cappable at fighting.
So the the answer lies in that. If its sport and training for weight loss etc than dont bother but if you want to say its TKD the fighting art than it needs to go up a notch. You dont get hard by being soft.

 

[Stac3y]

So I take it most of us would be fine with children as young as 8 blocking with sufficient force to bruise each other? Take it one step further: is it OK to demand it as an instructor (disregard my location issue for purposes of discussion - this really isn't about me).

I wouldn't demand it, simply because some people bruise really easily, and others (like me) have to be hit really hard in order to bruise. So if you use that as the standard, it's going to be confusing. You might have an easy bruiser injure him/herself trying to raise a mark on a hard bruiser. I'm more inclined to think of bruising as a byproduct than as a goal. I would probably just tell them to use "solid contact" and explain that it might sometimes cause bruises, and see how that works. I do think (as someone else said) that contact of this type needs to start light and progress as the student does.

 

[ATC]

Good topic. IMNSHO no easy answer. Discomfort, OK. Anything that requires medical attention or has a lastingeffect or visible sign some 48 hours later, not OK. That type of thing will have a cumalitive effect over the decades.

Further, the same level of intensity applied to some individuals will be OK for some and not for others.

Growing children should have less. Women over 40 and men over 50 should have less.

Smaller people should have less than larger people. This is particularly difficult for some larger people to appreciate. Example 180lb fit adult male vs 120lb person.

That 180lb male would have to face a fit 270lb male to appreciate the size difference.

Good points. It is essential to make sure that you are partnering like ages if not sizes (not always though). Also it is assumed that the contact of bone on bone with the partners is with some level of control. No one should be trying to hurt the other person, that would show a level of lack of control.

It is up to the instructor to constantly explain things and make sure that everyone is practicing with the same level of common sense.

You will always have varied levels of experience in your class as students are always coming and going. You will always have new students and you will always have veteran students. So your lessons will always be in a constant flux. You will never progress your lesson for a class environment beyond that of beginner to intermediate. More advanced students will seek private or partner with like advanced students and at some point and monitor their own progression. Also this is why advanced only classed are needed. However you as an instructor must always cater to the lease common denominator in all belt class.

When I teach and I say use control my black belts level of control is vastly different vs. each other than it is vs. a color belt. Just as two white belts using control may infer no contact at all. Advanced belt vs. beginner belt or color belts is where things get gray. Control for advanced belts vs. beginners may mean no contact by the advanced belt, but the beginner may hit the advanced belt fairly hard.

As an instructor that is your job to make sure that everyone knows by default what each situation calls for. Control has many different meanings in many different situations.

This is why the instructor needs to be talking constantly, reinforcing standars over and over.