Shoulder-level Lan Sau vs. Low Lan Sau

[Marnetmar]

Which do you use and why?

 

[KPM]

I don't do a shoulder-level Lan. From my perspective, when your Lan is that high it is not connected to your hip. Therefore it creates a poor structure and you are prone to being off-balanced backwards if someone presses into your Lan. And you are prone to being off-balanced forwards if someone presses down on your Lan.

A Lan held at mid-level (at about the level of the solar plexus) is connected to the hip and reinforces your structure. If someone presses into it you can redirect the force through your hips and into the ground....rooting. Same if someone presses downward on it. This Lan can be used to impart force into an opponent to break his structure (or his ribs!) or to push someone off just enough to create space for a strike. There are other uses as well.

 

[JPinAZ]

I don't agree with laan not working as high as shoulder height. I have no problem using a laan sau (aka laan bong) as high as shoulder height and still connecting it to the hips. But it requires the correct position, range, facing and contact/leverage point on the kiu for it to work. Also, proper energetic and pressure I guess.

 

[Danny T]

Depends.
Am I on top or bottom?
What is the spatial relationship to my opponent?
What is the contact point on my opponent?
Where is the opponent's pressure?
Other factors as well.

 

[geezer]

I learned lan sau (SNT and Chum Kiu) at the higher level. Over the decades, it seems that has evolved in the association I now belong to and we perform it somewhat lower, or if it is a double lan (as in SNT) the upper one will be a little lower than the shoulder and the one underneath will be at about solar plexus as KPM described. As Danny pointed out, I really see valid use of this position at multiple levels depending on the situation, what you are trying to accomplish, and the energy involved.

I liked Alan Orr's discussion of the lower lan-sau in the following clip:

 

[Marnetmar]

I don't agree with laan not working as high as shoulder height. I have no problem using a laan sau (aka laan bong) as high as shoulder height and still connecting it to the hips. But it requires the correct position, range, facing and contact/leverage point on the kiu for it to work. Also, proper energetic and pressure I guess.

Depends.
Am I on top or bottom?
What is the spatial relationship to my opponent?
What is the contact point on my opponent?
Where is the opponent's pressure?
Other factors as well.

Where and how might you use a higher Lan as opposed to a lower one?

 

[geezer]

Where and how might you use a higher Lan as opposed to a lower one?

Basically the high lan-sau can function as a hacking elbow to the face or throat. The Low lan-sau hacks to the ribs or controls the arm and body orf your opponent like what Alan showed above. I see the low version as probably having more value against a skilled sparring opponent who isn't going to invite an elbow to the face.

One specific application I teach for the higher (shoulder-level) lan sau as a self-defense technique (as compared to sparring/fighting) that is especially useful for a smaller person (such as a woman) to use to maintain space against a larger attacker who tries to grapple with a frontal bear-hug. The lan-sau shoots forward striking the attacker's throat, functioning like an elbow strike as well as forming a wedge between the defender's body and attacker's body, giving the defender room to continue punching to the face with the other hand. If the attacker tries to squeeze harder, he just drives the defender's lan-sau harder into his own throat. Kind of a "bone in the crocodile's jaw" effect.

Lan-sau to bar the way, wedging between you and your attacker's body. I.E. The bone in the monster's mouth effect:

Oh... and just like in Star Wars, it only works for a moment. So you have to take advantage quickly!

 

[Transk53]

Basically the high lan-sau can function as a hacking elbow to the face or throat. The Low lan-sau hacks to the ribs or controls the arm and body orf your opponent like what Alan showed above. I see the low version as probably having more value against a skilled sparring opponent who isn't going to invite an elbow to the face.

One specific application I teach for the higher (shoulder-level) lan sau as a self-defense technique (as compared to sparring/fighting) that is especially useful for a smaller person (such as a woman) to use to maintain space against a larger attacker who tries to grapple with a frontal bear-hug. The lan-sau shoots forward striking the attacker's throat, functioning like an elbow strike as well as forming a wedge between the defender's body and attacker's body, giving the defender room to continue punching to the face with the other hand. If the attacker tries to squeeze harder, he just drives the defender's lan-sau harder into his own throat. Kind of a "bone in the crocodile's jaw" effect.

Lan-sau to bar the way, wedging between you and your attacker's body. I.E. The bone in the monster's mouth effect: View attachment 19887

Oh... and just like in Star Wars, it only works for a moment. So you have to take advantage quickly!

No elbows or a knee?

 

[geezer]

No elbows or a knee?

Elbows and knees? I'm confused. I thought we were just talking about high and low lan-sau application.

 

[Transk53]

Elbows and knees? I'm confused. I thought we were just talking about high and low lan-sau application.

Sorry, wrong thread

 

[Juany118]

Where and how might you use a higher Lan as opposed to a lower one?

I actually use Lan Sau quite a bit at work, whether high or lower isn't dependent on myself as much as it depends on the size of the opponent and how I perceive their current center of balance. If they are over balanced towards me I go lower to disrupt them and thus gain distance. If their center is balanced away from me I go high because in that case the effect is again greater. If you are confident in your structure, depending on the purpose of course, imo the Lan you use is dictated by the opponent's structure, or lack there of.

 

[lansao]

This is an interesting thread. I was taught to use the lan sao at roughly shoulder height in a few ways but primarily as a deflective where the right fist of the partner is deflected down and to the right of the defender's body with the opportunity to bridge the right hand to the partner's right elbow. We were also taught to use a more outward lan sao for jamming strikes to pressure points on the neck. Additionally as a fail-safe yeilding position for a missed pak sao (aimed too high). That said, we were told never to limit applications and it's great to read these other approaches.

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

This is an interesting thread. I was taught to use the lan sao at roughly shoulder height in a few ways but primarily as a deflective where the right fist of the partner is deflected down and to the right of the defender's body with the opportunity to bridge the right hand to the partner's right elbow. We were also taught to use a more outward lan sao for jamming strikes to pressure points on the neck. Additionally as a fail-safe yeilding position for a missed pak sao (aimed too high). That said, we were told never to limit applications and it's great to read these other approaches.

~ Alan

Do you learn everything as application in your wing chun?

 

[lansao]

Do you learn everything as application in your wing chun?

The short answer, and with respect to the original topic of the thread, is that I learned everything in support of application with a stress on "trusting your kung fu" in the same way that a mathematician trusts that the axioms he/she studied will stack/scale as expressions necessarily become more complex. We spent a lot of time openly challenging, testing, and problem solving as a result.

Hope that is helpful!

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

The short answer, and with respect to the original topic of the thread, is that I learned everything in support of application with a stress on "trusting your kung fu" in the same way that a mathematician trusts that the axioms he/she studied will stack/scale as expressions necessarily become more complex. We spent a lot of time openly challenging, testing, and problem solving as a result.

Hope that is helpful!

~ Alan

What are the axioms of your kung fu?

 

[lansao]

What are the axioms of your kung fu?

A few of the axioms/assumptions I follow are here:

• Your opponent is likely bigger, faster, and/or stronger than you.
• Your opponent is likely accompanied by friends.
• Fighting force with force drains energy and fails with stronger opponents.
• Make the smallest movement within the realm of your safety.
• Fighting, even efficiently, takes a lot of energy. Be economical with it.

That said, and with respect, these are a small subset of the principles and concepts of wing chun taught by my Sifu and his.

That said, I want to be respectful of the thread's original topic. Maybe there is another thread we can refer to or join on this subject? Feel free to ping me directly.

~ Alan