Should TKD be trained like Boxing?

[Makalakumu]

At Mile's suggestion, I started this thread.

Miles - here's an interesting thought I've had for some time. Lets say we dump the history and just consider TKD as a modern combat sport. Lets say we grab a competition rule book and design a curriculum based off of common sparring stances, high percentage techniques and combinations, lots of drilling and lots of sparring. Dump everything else. No poomse, no ill soo shik, no ho sin shul.

My guess is that you would produce a competitive fighter far beyond the caliber of fighter that a traditional TKD curriculum would produce.

It's these kinds of questions that lead me ask why we practice what we practice. What's the purpose of forms without application? What's the purpose of ill soo shik and ho sin shul that have no relationship to either sparring or forms? What's the purpose of practicing basics that have no relationship to sparring, ill soo shik, ho sin shul, or hyung? IMO, this is an ecclectic mess.

Miles, as a professional educator, I've learned that the way curriculum ties together is very important to its effectiveness. If the elements are disjointed, then you end up practicing them separately, with no relation. It spreads your time too thin and the skill level you attain in any of the elements is retarded.

There is a way to practice all of the elements together so that they interact synergistically and you get better at everything at a greater rate. It's all about alignment. When your curriculum is aligned toward a set of goals and the elements are zero-summed to fit those goals, you create synergistic learning opportunities.

So, what if TKD were trained like boxing? Boxing has alignment of its basics, combos, drills, and sparring toward a specific set of goals. The result is that the system produces high level practicioners who acheive great results.

It struck me that Olympic TKD is probably the most "Korean" thing about TKD. With that being said, why not emphasize that in order to have a truly "Korean" martial art? So, should "Olympic TKD" be trained like Boxing?

 

[Marginal]

Isn't that basically what the whole freestyle karate movement was/is?

 

[terryl965]

If you are asking should it be train as a sport and not for self defense than yes. Olympic TKD is a sport always has been always will be. What people cannot come to the conclusion is there is more to TKD than the sport, TKD is a self defense art if tought by the right person. I mean any type of art can have SD principle in it if the instructor knows anything at all.

Why is it we only see and hear about the sport, mainly because it is so popular with alot of kids and parents, statistic show that 98% of all people will never ever have to use SD in there lifetime. With that in mind most people use it for physical fitness and as a sport. I believe anybody can have the best of the two worlds in TKD, I know I know how is this, well people train SD and still play softball or in Basketball leagues just trat it for what it is and go on with your lifes.

 

[dancingalone]

It struck me that Olympic TKD is probably the most "Korean" thing about TKD. With that being said, why not emphasize that in order to have a truly "Korean" martial art? So, should "Olympic TKD" be trained like Boxing?

I thought that was the case already. I talked to a Korean KKW 6th dan who is a former competitor and he admitted poomse was very low on the priority for most elite level Olympic style fighters. Makes sense as the type of sparring found in the Olympics is a far cry from the scenarios poomse train for.

 

[bluekey88]

It is my understanding that some of the sport oriented school train TKD exactly like this. Lots of conditioning, pad work and sparring. Littel to know poomse, SD, breaking and the like.

Personally, I like treading the middle ground. Trying to learn and be competent at all aspects of the art (sport, self-defense, poomse, etc.). Like a liberal arts education, I feel this creates a well-rounded martial artist with a stronger base...specialization can occur later shoudl the student wish that or have a particular aptitude for something.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Makalakumu]

I thought that was the case already. I talked to a Korean KKW 6th dan who is a former competitor and he admitted poomse was very low on the priority for most elite level Olympic style fighters. Makes sense as the type of sparring found in the Olympics is a far cry from the scenarios poomse train for.

Interesting. Do you think it will get to a point where poomse and other aspects are dropped completely?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At Mile's suggestion, I started this thread.



It struck me that Olympic TKD is probably the most "Korean" thing about TKD. With that being said, why not emphasize that in order to have a truly "Korean" martial art? So, should "Olympic TKD" be trained like Boxing?

As others have said, the high level olympic competitors already train that way, though I'm not sure that that is the question you are really asking.

So to clarify, do you mean olympic hopefuls or do you mean olympic 'style'?

For the sake of this conversation, if you mean olympic 'style', which would cover any and all Kukkiwon schools, then the correct nomenclature is WTF style. I make this distinction because 99% of those who practice Kukkiwon taekwondo are not competative practitioners, but they still spar using the WTF rule set.

So when you say...

"...that Olympic TKD is probably the most "Korean" thing about TKD. With that being said, why not emphasize that in order to have a truly "Korean" martial art?"

...do you mean that

1) all competative taekwondoist should train with an emphasis on or entirely on WTF sparring, doing bagwork, endurance training, and focusing on in the ring strategy and tactics?

or

2) that all taekwondo should be taught with the end goal of training in WTF style sparring, thus eliminating the aspects that art traditionally associated with the 'art', such as poomsae and the self defense elements?

If you mean #1, then this question has already been answered. If number two, sure, they can do that if they'd like, but if that is what my taekwondo school turned into, I'd say thanks, but no thanks, and go find an actual traditional school.

Why?

Because martial sport is not a martial art, nor is it a fighting system, nor does it have the practical SD element that the majority of people really hope to get from a martial art (whether or not they actually get it is material for another thread).

Also, once you have embraced athletics and moved away from MA, you have a fundemental shift in behavior. Read the interviews in the Special Olympic Issue of TKD Times with the Lopez family, Charlotte Craig, and the coaching staff and then go to the last part of the same magazine and read the columns by Dr. Tae Yun Kim, Master Rondy, Karen Eden and the Last Word by C.M. Griffin. You will see a very, very marked difference in how they look at taekwondo and in their demeanor.

Not a dig on the Lopez family or Charlotte Craig or their coaching staff, mind you; they were professional and well spoken. But they came accross as professional, well spoken athletes. You could have substituted the word, 'taekwondo' with 'gymnastics' and they would have fit right in. They clearly approach taekwondo as a sport, not as an MA. The tone of the Lopez family was one of competative athletics, not martial arts.

If I want competative athletics with a martial sport, I'll just focus on fencing or go to a kickboxing school and be done with it. Nothing wrong with fencing, boxing or kickboxing, but I want something different than what those have to offer, thus I practice kumdo and taekwondo. I do fence, incidentally and love it, but that is the limit of my competative athletics.

So the big question is what do you want? Taekwondo the martial art and fighting system with practical SD and some WTF sparring or do you want Taekwondo the olympic sport with WTF sparring without any of the rest of the above?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting. Do you think it will get to a point where poomse and other aspects are dropped completely?

No. I believe a minimum level of lip service will always be paid to pattern practice. No one wants to be branded as 'untraditional' after all. I do see TKD continuing to fracture along the sport divide however, which honestly I'm not too broken up about. There's enough room in this world for multiple interpretations of what the term taekwondo means. The sooner even casual consumers know to ask "what kind of TKD do you do" the better in my book.

 

[searcher]

No. I believe a minimum level of lip service will always be paid to pattern practice. No one wants to be branded as 'untraditional' after all. I do see TKD continuing to fracture along the sport divide however, which honestly I'm not too broken up about. There's enough room in this world for multiple interpretations of what the term taekwondo means. The sooner even casual consumers know to ask "what kind of TKD do you do" the better in my book.

I see the fracture coming as well. I just wish that someone would start calling the sport group something different name wise. Hopefully this would allow for the sport guys to go one way and the SD/traditional to go another. Here is to wishful thinking.

 

[Makalakumu]

In reference to Daniel's query, I was trying to say that "WTF" Taekwondo should make sparring and sport it's focus and drop forms, one steps, and self defenses. From an educational point of view, the way the curriculum is put together doesn't make sense. There are too many objectives working at cross purposes.

That said, I agree with posters in that I see a clear distinction forming between WTF style and old school Korean Karate. Yet with the latter, many of the same issues with curriculum still apply. The different curriculum elements do not link together well and therefore do not support learning when practicing one element or the other.

In many ways, a WTF stylist that drops all of the "traditional" baggage is practicing an art that makes more sense.

That is, unless, the Korean Karate group takes a good hard look at what they are doing and attempts to work out some if the fundamental issues that prevent basics, forms, one steps, self defenses, and sparring from supporting one another.

 

[rabbit]

Some TKD styles are made for the america consumer. There is no mention of QiGong (iron palm and other exercises) or meditation. Instead they focus on "life skills" and other american ideas. I guess it is more acceptable.

I rather it be treated like a sport. Thats the best way to improve physically. Lots of conditioning. We get fit stong and learn how to fight. If you develop physically you will develop a sense of well-being.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In reference to Daniel's query, I was trying to say that "WTF" Taekwondo should make sparring and sport it's focus and drop forms, one steps, and self defenses. From an educational point of view, the way the curriculum is put together doesn't make sense. There are too many objectives working at cross purposes.

Thank you for the clarification. I agree: most schools do not do a good job, if any of integrating the sport and the art.

That said, I agree with posters in that I see a clear distinction forming between WTF style and old school Korean Karate. Yet with the latter, many of the same issues with curriculum still apply. The different curriculum elements do not link together well and therefore do not support learning when practicing one element or the other.

In many ways, a WTF stylist that drops all of the "traditional" baggage is practicing an art that makes more sense.

Unless the traditional and the sport are well integrated, again, I'd agree with you. But then, why drop 90% of the curriculum and call it taekwondo? I'd day that Tae-do would be a much more descriptive name. But I'm one of those who feels that you can have both. As your below paragraph illustrates...

That is, unless, the Korean Karate group takes a good hard look at what they are doing and attempts to work out some if the fundamental issues that prevent basics, forms, one steps, self defenses, and sparring from supporting one another.

This is what kendo schools do. We don't have a dichotomy between the 'sport' and the tradition. The two are well integrated and compliment eachother. I have been very fortunate that my taekwondo instructor structures his TKD class very similarly, so there is a clear connection between one step sparring and both SD and sport.

Personally, I feel that having the sport and traditional side is actually traditional. The tournament fight is as old as the martial arts, but being a competative tournament fighter has a fuse. Eventually, you develope a nice collection of sports injuries and age slows your healing process. By having the full curriculum, tradition, SD, and sport, there is something for the tournament junkie to transition to once he or she either has the competition bug out of their system or have reached an age where they're no longer competative. Then they can transition to pure SD, and eventually, focus on the pholosophical and historical aspects of the art.

In this way, taekwondo is an art that will carry its practitioners through all stages of life. As long as it is just tournaments and sparring, there is really little there for anyone who is much over thirty. Taekwondo becomes football or lacrosse; you do it when you're young and brag about how good you were when you're out of college and in the real world. At that point, you're no longer competative due to either age, wear and tear, or due to lack of training because you simply don't have time to train at that level due to family and career.

Daniel

 

[Miles]

There are several ways to answer this question. I will give what actually is the short answer.

Should TKD be a very physical activity? The answer is of course, yes.

Boxing and Olympic TKD sparring are also both exciting (IMHO) sports. They are combat sports requiring striking and as such there are many similarities in training such as bag work, target practice, sparring with and without contact.

Olympic TKD sparring has wrongfully been labeled the entirety of Kukki-TKD. It is a very public aspect of TKD. But Taekwondo is more than just sparring, more than just a sport. Sparring is an important part of Taekwondo, but so are Kibon practice, Poomsae, and Kyukpa.

Taekwondo should be a lifelong activity. As such, it is natural to engage in those parts of Taekwondo which correspond with one's stage in life. That is not to say one can't do all 4 parts of Taekwondo at all stages, but it is natural and healthy to emphasize certain aspects at certain times.

For example, a child needs direction and guidance. The structure of Kibon practice is appropriate for this age.

Adolescents need more activity and are aggressive. The practice of kyorugi gives them an opportunity to use this active time and dispense their aggression in a healthy manner.

Adulthood is the longest stage in one's life. It is generally where one has the time and maturity to condition the tools needed for kyukpa. It is also the time where one can start to appreciate the creativity and philosophy encased within the Poomsae.

Taekwondo is for everyone, not just the young. Olympic-style sparring is a very high-impact, high-energy activity. One's ability to spar will fade with age. However, one can continue to enjoy and train in Taekwondo their entire lives.

Keep training and enjoy the journey!

 

[Miles]

I thought that was the case already. I talked to a Korean KKW 6th dan who is a former competitor and he admitted poomse was very low on the priority for most elite level Olympic style fighters. Makes sense as the type of sparring found in the Olympics is a far cry from the scenarios poomse train for.

Yes, probably like any elite-athlete, one only trains in activities which will enhance your sport-performance. I recently attended a seminar by Professor Jung, Kuk Hyun, the 88 Olympic gold-medallist and many-time World Champion. He is now a professor of Taekwondo and was the model for the Poomsae dvd series produced by the WTF. I am sure that at the stage of his career where he was training to be a fighter, it was all sparring and conditioning drills. He has gotten older and performs poomsae magnificently.

 

[rabbit]

Taekwondo is for everyone, not just the young. Olympic-style sparring is a very high-impact, high-energy activity. One's ability to spar will fade with age. However, one can continue to enjoy and train in Taekwondo their entire lives.

Keep training and enjoy the journey!

I don't like the high impact part of training. I much rather it be light contact.

 

[bluekey88]

Unfortunately, I think tha prevents one from experiencing the "resistance" one needs to see if what one is doing is working on any level. You need to feel what it is like to get hit and you need to be workign at a speed that technical errors are going to get the feedback of getting hit. There really is no better learning tool.

We don't have to smack th etar out of each other, but there has to be more than light contact.

Peace,
Erik

 

[rabbit]

Unfortunately, I think tha prevents one from experiencing the "resistance" one needs to see if what one is doing is working on any level. You need to feel what it is like to get hit and you need to be workign at a speed that technical errors are going to get the feedback of getting hit. There really is no better learning tool.

We don't have to smack th etar out of each other, but there has to be more than light contact.

Peace,
Erik

I agree. Thats why you use protective gear to help withstand the harder blows. We shouldn't hit each other to the point of breaking ribs or breaking necks.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Getting hit and learning the technical aspects of hitting and getting hit are related to sparring and have no accumulated value when dealing with the self defense aspect of the art. This is part and parcel of the problem with TKD in general. Because the main general focus is on the sport venue, the majority of folks in turn relate their training along the same lines. In a self defense setting, I don't need to be 100% technically correct in using a technique, I just have to be able to deliver it with conviction. I've been to enough competitions and have seen where points weren't awarded because of improper technique value or not in the proper hitting area. When your focus is directed on these elements, most people loose the bigger picture and thusly stagnate whatever self defense platforn that could have been available. In reality, the high level TKD patrons who have the athletic ability to attempt to achieve the Olympic status already train along the same lines as boxers. Build endurance, focus on mandated targets and build more endurance. Now I don't know about the rest of you, but the last Olympics bored me to sleep. A fast paced chess match would have been a step up from the sparring that was presented. At least they would have been hitting the time clock with authority. :uhohh:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Getting hit and learning the technical aspects of hitting and getting hit are related to sparring and have no accumulated value when dealing with the self defense aspect of the art.

The rest of your post I agree with, but this part I disagree with. Being able to take a hit has practical SD value. If you're struck and then spend the next two minutes clutching yourself in pain because you're not accustomed to taking a hit, then you are now at a serious disadvantage. Likewise, if you deliver a blow incorrectly and sprain or otherwise injure your wrist in the process, then you are again at a disadvantage in a practical SD scenario. And if your blows lack power, then they'll simply be ineffective. The full contact aspect of WTF sparring is the one thing that I feel truly has applicable value in SD, as the participants train to actually deliver their blows at full force and defend against full force blows.

There are aspects of WTF sparring that I do feel are counter productive to practical SD, which are mainly the lack of hand techniques that are allowed and the focus on high kicks. And then there's hands down sparring, a popular trend in WTF style, but one that could potentially get you killed outside of the ring.

Daniel

 

[rabbit]

There are aspects of WTF sparring that I do feel are counter productive to practical SD, which are mainly the lack of hand techniques that are allowed and the focus on high kicks. And then there's hands down sparring, a popular trend in WTF style, but one that could potentially get you killed outside of the ring.

Daniel

MMA has a little of everything.