Should TKD be trained like Boxing?
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Brad Dunne
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. "Being able to take a hit has practical SD value"
Not in my book. If I take a hit, it's because I was unaware that it was coming, otherwise I should have blocked it or at least attempted to block it or slipped it, in which case I should have reduced the full impact of the strike or not been hit at all. Another aspect would be where the strike target was, if the strike was unforeseen and it did connect. This is where the sparring mentality has come into play and has crossed over into the self defense mindset.
"Likewise, if you deliver a blow incorrectly and sprain or otherwise injure your wrist in the process"
Boxers, who have the hands wrapped and protected (gloves) have injured their hands, so it's not that uncommon for bare handed strikes to cause an injury, even if it's delivered "correctly", whatever way one deems that to be.
As pointed out, the lack of hand techniques allowed is also counter productive and almost is a contradiction to your hit and be hit evaluation.
Not in my book. If I take a hit, it's because I was unaware that it was coming, otherwise I should have blocked it or at least attempted to block it or slipped it, in which case I should have reduced the full impact of the strike or not been hit at all. Another aspect would be where the strike target was, if the strike was unforeseen and it did connect. This is where the sparring mentality has come into play and has crossed over into the self defense mindset.
"Likewise, if you deliver a blow incorrectly and sprain or otherwise injure your wrist in the process"
Boxers, who have the hands wrapped and protected (gloves) have injured their hands, so it's not that uncommon for bare handed strikes to cause an injury, even if it's delivered "correctly", whatever way one deems that to be.
As pointed out, the lack of hand techniques allowed is also counter productive and almost is a contradiction to your hit and be hit evaluation.
However, things happen...especially in a fight/SD scenario. I'd rather be used to taking/giving hits than have an otherwise potenitally succesful defesnse ruined because I was unabel to cope with getting caught.
Peace,
Erik
I would have to agree being ablr to take a hit and continue is in everyone best interest if they are training for real. Remember no matter how good you are you will be hit and for those that believe they are just that much better, I simply will say goodluck to you when or if you ever get in an encounter.
You are the first person that I have ever heard try to make a case that being able to hit and take a hit has no value in SD. The overwhelming majority of taekwondo and general TMA detractors specifically cite no-contact or light contact sparring when training in the dojang/dojo.
As for your last sentence, it isn't a contradition; I never said that WTF sparring was ideal or even very good for hit-and-be-hit training. I only disagreed with you that taking a hit and hitting have no value in practical SD.
I did say that WTF sparring is full contact. Since the participants wear padding, you won't learn to take a full force head shot or body shot in street clothes unless you train that way at your dojang in addition to the sport element.
This is one of the reasons that I disagree with the idea that TKD should drop the traditional and SD aspects and become like boxing. Take away those elements and you still won't attract the top fighters (they'll still go to the same places that they currently go) and TKD won't develope any greater quantity of top fighters: the problem isn't a lack of emphasis on the sport or some SD vs. sport identity crisis, but a lack of emphasis on hard training in the majority of commercial dojangs.
Daniel
Brad Dunne
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Taking a hit.............How are you taking a hit if you are sparring with protective gear on? Your allowing yourself a false sense of affirmative action by thinking your taking a hit this way and your doing yourself a valued training exercise. I've been hit many times wearing this protection and all it did was allow me to keep on proceeding with the event without being hurt. All that was happening was points were being scored, but no one was being physically stopped by these hits. Now do I for one minute think I could have absorbed those types of hits, without the gear on and be able to continue? Of course not! But apparently some folks do and that to me creates a/the problem.
"I did say that WTF sparring is full contact. Since the participants wear padding, you won't learn to take a full force head shot or body shot in street clothes unless you train that way at your dojang in addition to the sport element."
So in your dojang, you take "full force head and body shots" without protection, as part of your training? Excuse me for a moment while I go in the other room and take a couple of aspirins.......................................
OK, I'm back and I still do not have a rational thought in my head as to why anyone would submit not only themselves, but students, to the very real prospect of getting injured from training in this fashion.
Now I concur with your assessment of dojangs don't train hard enough, but there is a distinct difference between hard training and self destruction. Pushing your physical limits, endurance/speed/flexability and strength are all controlable venues, but I have absolutely no control in taking a full blast to any part of my body and anyone who thinks that they have this ability is in for a very rude awakening.
Bottom line to this is the overall mindset between sport and self defense. All the above retoric states the difference. In SD, I don't want to spar with an individual. I want to end the conflict post haste. This means that I will do things that are not allowed in a sparring competition. Thusly, my training an attitude differs greatly from that of one who relishes the hit and get hit applications associated with the sport mindset. Now do I think that in a SD situation that I might not get hit? Of course not, but as stated prior, the awareness of the situation and the availability of doing things that are not confined to a sporting application will allow me not to take that full blast. The focal point of my training is to protect/defend yourself from attack, not to exchange blows, which is the sport mindset.
"I did say that WTF sparring is full contact. Since the participants wear padding, you won't learn to take a full force head shot or body shot in street clothes unless you train that way at your dojang in addition to the sport element."
So in your dojang, you take "full force head and body shots" without protection, as part of your training? Excuse me for a moment while I go in the other room and take a couple of aspirins.......................................
OK, I'm back and I still do not have a rational thought in my head as to why anyone would submit not only themselves, but students, to the very real prospect of getting injured from training in this fashion.
Now I concur with your assessment of dojangs don't train hard enough, but there is a distinct difference between hard training and self destruction. Pushing your physical limits, endurance/speed/flexability and strength are all controlable venues, but I have absolutely no control in taking a full blast to any part of my body and anyone who thinks that they have this ability is in for a very rude awakening.
Bottom line to this is the overall mindset between sport and self defense. All the above retoric states the difference. In SD, I don't want to spar with an individual. I want to end the conflict post haste. This means that I will do things that are not allowed in a sparring competition. Thusly, my training an attitude differs greatly from that of one who relishes the hit and get hit applications associated with the sport mindset. Now do I think that in a SD situation that I might not get hit? Of course not, but as stated prior, the awareness of the situation and the availability of doing things that are not confined to a sporting application will allow me not to take that full blast. The focal point of my training is to protect/defend yourself from attack, not to exchange blows, which is the sport mindset.
That goes considderably further than what I stated in my post. We don't, though I did train that way when I was younger and had no responsibility to anyone but myself. If we did train that way, we'd be out of business; not enough wannabe-tough-men in the area to sustain such a school.
We do practical SD training that focuses on ending the confrontation quickly and escaping.
The only reason that I made that comment is that I didn't want anyone to think that I somehow was implying that WTF sparring is equal to taking full force body and head shots without protective gear.
Being aware and unrestricted by competition rules is no guarantee that you'll never get hit full force, though the former goes a long way towards preventing it. The latter is helpful for getting you out should the former fail in keeping you out.
But if you feel that training to hit and be hit has no practical SD value, then you're in the minority regarding that. If you (the general you, not you specifically) do not train to deliver your blows at full force (the ability to hit, be it a hand strike or a kick) against a resisting opponent, then chances are that you won't be able to when you need to.
As for taking a hit, most people can take more of a hit than they think that they can and keep going (i.e. escape or otherwise end the confrontation quickly), but until that is demonstrated to them in a controled environment, they'll more than likely panic and freeze. It is the freezing that I was addressing in this.
I think that we both agree that WTF sparring (or similar styles of sparring) does not equate to practical SD and that taking a hit while in hogu does not equate to taking a hit while in street clothes.
I think that we can both also agree that any instructor who lets students believe that skill in WTF sparring somehow equates to being unassailable or to practical SD skills is a highly irresponible individual who either doesn't know any better (which relates back to whoever instructed them) or is banking on their students never having to find out while taking their money.
Daniel
C
CA-Steel
Guest
At our school we train both ways. We have traditional classes which 100% of all student start out in. Then our Master instructor pick certain student to join our competition team. Only a select few get this privileged.
Our competition team consist of two teams. One is Poomse only and the other is Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring). If you do forms you will not fight and if you fight you will not do forms. You have to train for one or the other.
But you need a base and your basics are the base. So traditional training is required to see who really has a special talent for either. Traditional training shows more that your kicks, punches, throws, and locks. It shows who is dedicated. Who practices at home and who wants to be there. it is a way of developing your skills and weeding out non dedicated.
Also many people do not want to compete. They want to stay fit or get fit. And some just want to socialize. Still others just want to learn to defend themselves if ever the need arise.
So traditional training is always and will always be needed.
Our competition team consist of two teams. One is Poomse only and the other is Kyorugi (Olympic Sparring). If you do forms you will not fight and if you fight you will not do forms. You have to train for one or the other.
But you need a base and your basics are the base. So traditional training is required to see who really has a special talent for either. Traditional training shows more that your kicks, punches, throws, and locks. It shows who is dedicated. Who practices at home and who wants to be there. it is a way of developing your skills and weeding out non dedicated.
Also many people do not want to compete. They want to stay fit or get fit. And some just want to socialize. Still others just want to learn to defend themselves if ever the need arise.
So traditional training is always and will always be needed.
