Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul and the Progression of Learning in Tangsoodo

Makalakumu

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I just wanted to share a few thoughts with you concerning Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul. Basically every test that a Gup takes, both of these are integral parts. This is because they are so important to the practice of Tang Soo Do. These two exercises are the practical application of the techniques that we learn. Without them Tang Soo Do, any martial art, would be ineffective in combat.

If they are so important, what are they? Before we left the Soo Bahk Do Federations, they were a series of stylized movements that showed various defense routines for punches, kicks and grabs. Unfortunately, besides being creatively limiting, they were also dangerous to the martial artist who is forced to use his martial skill on the street. To ingrain some of those moves into your realm of instinctual movement would leave you horribly open in many situations. That is why I whole-heartedly agree with removing those sequences from my training.

Yet, with their removal, came a large hole in our training I feel. I wasn't quite sure what to do, or which was which. In reality, the Federations Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul were the same thing. One person was attacking with a known attack and the other was defending with a known defense in order to practice distance, timing, and repitition (which would lead to instinctual movement). Now, without those stylized techniques, the definitions of what Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul have been blurred. What really is the purpose? What really is the difference between them?

Well, the purpose of Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul remains the same as stated above. They are the practical application of the techniques that we learn as part of Tang Soo Do. With them we practice Distance, Timing, and Repitition. Yet the difference between the two remains cloudy if one attempts to stay within the paradigm of the Soo Bahk Do Federation. I say, let us look at the definition for each. Ill Soo Shik translates into One Step Sparring. With Ill Soo Shik, the defender controls the situation in order to explore the depths of the technique learned.

Ho Sin Shul, on the other hand, translates into Self Defense. I believe that in this exercise and in real life, the attacker controls the situation and the defender must be prepared for anything from punches, kicks, grapples, throws, weapons, basically whatever is offered. Basically, with the practice of Ho Sin Shul, the defender is forced to tap into their realm of instinctual movement and defend themselves with proper technique delivered with proper distance and timing.

With those definitions in hand, I believe that Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul can truly help to prepare someone for a realistic combat situation. In truth, Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul are nothing but drills where one partner or the other controls the situation. To limit one to punches and kicks and the other to grabs and joint locks is not going to be useful or realistic because all of those techniques could be used in either drill. Creatively, Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul are the personal expression of your own martial art. A martial artist needs to practice these exercises, lest the dragon lose its teeth.


In Superior Tang Soo Do there is a definitive progression of learning aspects that train you for self-defense. Everything starts with the basics and these include techniques for striking, grappling, throwing, blocking, etc. Then it progresses to the hyung, which are like encyclopedia that show how the basics are used. Ill Soo Shik enter the picture as a student beings to analyze the forms and practice what feels good for them and what they think would be successful for them. Ho Sin Shul provide a student with the opportunity to work the techniques against an unwilling partner who is going to be attacking at random or trying to stop what you are doing. This is still a controlled environment, though. And finally, there is sparring. People with opposing goals will meet in a predetermined venue with predetermined rules and test their skills with control. Often the practice of Ho Sin Shul is indistinguishable from sparring because the relaxation of the rules in Ho Sin Shul provides a progression to sparring.
 

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Having seen the progression of Kyosanim Kedrowski's system I feel it is safe to say that many of the growing pains are over. However the awkwardness that accompanies the new body is still to be overcome. This issue between Ill Su Shik and Ho Shin Shul is at the heart of the matter. Kyosanim's conception of Ill soo Shik has undergone many mutations and has finally congealed itself into a workable model which prods the student into self exploration and taking ownership of THIER art. I must admit I have been frustrated at these sea changes at times, yet I pride myself as embodying my water elemental, and thus I try to flow and adapt as needed.

As with all water, I came to an impasse and a decision, stagnation or redirection. Having pondered this recent change I found that I must re-envision my Ill Soo shik and break it up into a manageable task. Being somewhat of a renaissance thinker I found myself thinking of it today at work, so I stepped outside and went through the hand motions and solidified my first 5. Unfortunately I have left out the finishing move. However coming from a Kung Fu original art form I think that making my own kata sans finishing moves may help me memorize my heretofore nebulous Ill Soo Shik.

I also recognize a certain hesitation in my Ill Soo Shik at utilizing throws as both Kyosanim and Jason do. This is most certainly caused by my lack of experience with grappling and throwing. This too may be a result of my Kung Fu favoring of striking and what I cheekily refer to as "Dirty Kung Fu"
I think that with authorization from Kyosanim I am going to add "Superior Position" moves which are in fact Nasty Strike points or punishing moves. This isn’t very Water I admit however I think that I should also incorporate my Chinese Zodiac as a Fire Dragon and meld that with my Scorpio Wateriness to encompass my very own Aum Yang.

A thought comes to mind which may be beyond the scope of this post but may be a kernel of arcane wisdom that may stick subconsciously with the reader of this post. As a water I have found my greatest success at redirection or alchemically stated...

Solve Et Coagula

break down and reform

it is from this chaos that the greatest order can be achieved

and hopefully out of the ashes I will find some workable Ill Soo Shik
 
OP
Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Novitiate said:
Having seen the progression of Kyosanim Kedrowski's system I feel it is safe to say that many of the growing pains are over. However the awkwardness that accompanies the new body is still to be overcome. This issue between Ill Su Shik and Ho Shin Shul is at the heart of the matter. Kyosanim's conception of Ill soo Shik has undergone many mutations and has finally congealed itself into a workable model which prods the student into self exploration and taking ownership of THIER art. I must admit I have been frustrated at these sea changes at times, yet I pride myself as embodying my water elemental, and thus I try to flow and adapt as needed.

Being a teacher by trade, one of my greatest frustrations I experienced when I was training under my teacher, were the disconnects and ill defined aspects of the art. I think as a Watery Type, you may have thrived under those conditions, I however, wanted to see a logical progession that tied up the loose ends and was philosophically sound.

With that being said, any new teacher goes through these growing pains at the beginning of their trade. And I think that good teachers, constantly have growing pains of some sort. This is a sign of growth. The danger is when they happen too quickly.

As with all water, I came to an impasse and a decision, stagnation or redirection. Having pondered this recent change I found that I must re-envision my Ill Soo shik and break it up into a manageable task. Being somewhat of a renaissance thinker I found myself thinking of it today at work, so I stepped outside and went through the hand motions and solidified my first 5. Unfortunately I have left out the finishing move. However coming from a Kung Fu original art form I think that making my own kata sans finishing moves may help me memorize my heretofore nebulous Ill Soo Shik.

Just as you would invert symbols or reflect them in order to find meaning, sometimes moves in the kata are like this.

Also remember that "finishing moves" sometimes finish nothing.

I also recognize a certain hesitation in my Ill Soo Shik at utilizing throws as both Kyosanim and Jason do. This is most certainly caused by my lack of experience with grappling and throwing. This too may be a result of my Kung Fu favoring of striking and what I cheekily refer to as "Dirty Kung Fu" I think that with authorization from Kyosanim I am going to add "Superior Position" moves which are in fact Nasty Strike points or punishing moves. This isn’t very Water I admit however I think that I should also incorporate my Chinese Zodiac as a Fire Dragon and meld that with my Scorpio Wateriness to encompass my very own Aum Yang.

There is an art practiced by some of my friends in St. Cloud and many other members of the bb called kenpo. One of the things that I have always like about that art is the tendency for overkill. With that being said, I prefer to have uke meditating in a horizontal position as much as possible. There are many self defense advantages to this, because if gives you a clear break to exit from a fight if you can.

There are other variations of superior positions that will do this, just as well. Experiment. Just remember that superior position isn't a stopping point. It is a time of decision with both sides, inferior and superior, deciding various things. Think about your goals. If wanting to end the fight as quickly as possible and fighting as little as possible is something you wish to acheive, then your choice of technique to train should reflect this.

A thought comes to mind which may be beyond the scope of this post but may be a kernel of arcane wisdom that may stick subconsciously with the reader of this post. As a water I have found my greatest success at redirection or alchemically stated...

Solve Et Coagula

break down and reform

it is from this chaos that the greatest order can be achieved.

Play with that principle. In Japanese, they call that aiki. Harmonize with your opponent's energy.

and hopefully out of the ashes I will find some workable Ill Soo Shik

This is the crux of the creative process that I encourage. It certainly would be easier if I just handed you a set of bunkai that I wanted you to practice for grading, but it wouldn't help you understand the art.
 

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A thought has occurred to me in regards to our Ill Soo Shik “Superior Position” discussion. Being an online gamer who deals with attack percentages the answer presented itself. The superior position isn’t really a position it is a percentage.
In other words being on the ground after a throw just doesn’t magically happen.
Just as the effects of a strike on stomach 9 isn’t assured.
When I play my Game I tend to maximize my speed and damage while combining skills towards a certain build
-for instance I am currently using a Ranger/Warrior build that utilizes a speed skill of the Ranger that increases attacks by 33% and coupling that with the slowest Warrior weapon (also most damage) a two handed war hammer. There are many variables including skill attributes, weapon type, and opponent’s armor that effect the outcome.


So we have a possible formula for Martial arts attacks presents itself
With these variables:
(Just for arguments sake…I hope Kyosanim the science teacher will alter this accordingly for the apostate art teacher)

Speed of application
effect of application
difficulty of application
personal skill level in regards to said application
+
Opponents skill
Opponents body type
Opponents armaments

So on a strike to Stomach 9 the speed of the attack relative to a throw is a great advantage
And a knock out (obviously superior) in this instance is say a 3 in 10 chance with a speed of say 7 out of 10. for arguments sake the average of these numbers is 5

Now a throw (say o’goshi) would be much slower to pull off even if applied by an expert Judo Player
Say 4 out of 10. I would even begrudgingly give the same percentage of a 3 in 10 chance of effectively pulling off the throw against a foe who is fighting your efforts. The average for this is 3.5 However the Uki is not unconscious and so… the fight is still on unless you retreat which adds to the complexity of the equation.

What I am trying to say in very unscientific terms is I think “Superior Position” is relative to a percentage of success in relation to a favorable outcome such as retreat, knockdown, knockout…etc

Our art is replete with throws, breaks, and strike points. The question is, are there certain strike points which, coupled with all the available relevant variables, are “superior” to Nage throws when all the factors are taken into account. Would these then for arguments sake then be considered…superior?

I hope this wasn’t to ill informed…
Please go easy on my Mr. Science Teacher
 
OP
Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Novitiate said:
A thought has occurred to me in regards to our Ill Soo Shik “Superior Position” discussion. Being an online gamer who deals with attack percentages the answer presented itself. The superior position isn’t really a position it is a percentage. In other words being on the ground after a throw just doesn’t magically happen. Just as the effects of a strike on stomach 9 isn’t assured.

Yes, it is possible for both to fail in an "alive" environment. The "you try something, it didn't work, now what?" progression/question is something that is very important to keep in mind. What gives you the greatest effect for the least amount of risk?

When I play my Game I tend to maximize my speed and damage while combining skills towards a certain build-for instance I am currently using a Ranger/Warrior build that utilizes a speed skill of the Ranger that increases attacks by 33% and coupling that with the slowest Warrior weapon (also most damage) a two handed war hammer. There are many variables including skill attributes, weapon type, and opponent’s armor that effect the outcome.

So we have a possible formula for Martial arts attacks presents itself
With these variables: (Just for arguments sake…I hope Kyosanim the science teacher will alter this accordingly for the apostate art teacher)

Speed of application
effect of application
difficulty of application
personal skill level in regards to said application
+
Opponents skill
Opponents body type
Opponents armaments

So on a strike to Stomach 9 the speed of the attack relative to a throw is a great advantage and a knock out (obviously superior) in this instance is say a 3 in 10 chance with a speed of say 7 out of 10. for arguments sake the average of these numbers is 5

Now a throw (say o’goshi) would be much slower to pull off even if applied by an expert Judo Player say 4 out of 10. I would even begrudgingly give the same percentage of a 3 in 10 chance of effectively pulling off the throw against a foe who is fighting your efforts. The average for this is 3.5 However the Uki is not unconscious and so… the fight is still on unless you retreat which adds to the complexity of the equation.

What I am trying to say in very unscientific terms is I think “Superior Position” is relative to a percentage of success in relation to a favorable outcome such as retreat, knockdown, knockout…etc

This is a good way to view superior position. Positions that make it hard for your opponent to retaliate are superior. This can be viewed on a continuum. Some positions make it hard for uki to retaliate and some make it even harder. Positions like that are "more superior" then other types of superior position. Think about that...

Our art is replete with throws, breaks, and strike points. The question is, are there certain strike points which, coupled with all the available relevant variables, are “superior” to Nage throws when all the factors are taken into account? Would these then for arguments sake then be considered…superior?

You can think of your ill soo shik as a progression of superior positions. When you start, you are effectively neutral with your opponent. If you strike your opponent after they attack, then you are in slightly superior position, because the effects of that strike "may" slightly reduce uki's ability to retaliate. Striking a vital area, may reduce it more. Breaking a limb may reduce it even more. Tossing someone on the ground may reduce it even more. All of those combined may very well add up to being "highly" superior.

I hope this wasn’t to ill informed…
Please go easy on me Mr. Science Teacher

One of your issues with nage is that you aren't recognizing where they fit into the picture. You don't see the openings. In the end, they are pretty much just like a strike. There is a gap and you fill that gap. We'll do some guided ho sin shul on thursday and I'll show you what I mean. Get ready to hit the mat...;)

Take it easy...never. :asian:

upnorthkyosa
 

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