Should People Wear High Rank?

[MJS]

Seeing that there is alot of talk regarding Jeff and the comments that he made, I thought I'd start this thread.

There seems to be alot of talk on the issue of rank. Questions of time in grade and people who were quick to slap on a 10th have come up.

Do you feel that people should refrain from wearing a 10th? Looking at a post by one of Mr. Bob Whites students, he states that Mr. White refuses to put on a 10th, this I imagine, to be out of respect for Mr. Parker.

Reading a post on the KN, someone made an interesting analogy. They stated, if someone was a 9th, and refused to wear a 10th out of respect for Parker, the highest they would ever go would be 9th. If students, out of respect for their teacher refused to put on a 9th, the highest they'd go would be 8th. This process would continue until everyone was just wearing a white belt.

Thoughts?

 

[pete]

This process would continue until everyone was just wearing a white belt.

cool, maybe then it will be about the art and not the accessories.

don't keep score? how do you measure yourself with the other golfers????
by height.

 

[Carol]

I disagree that the process would continue until everyone was just wearing a white belt.

In all Kenpo systems, there is a specific requirement of performance from yellow to first black. Some systems test for material after first black. Somewhere after the first black or first few degrees, there is no more tested material and promotions become political...and controversial.

Sometimes I wonder if some MAist find the task of building a lifelong reputation to be too pesky and cumbersome. After all, its much easier to have a stripe embroidered on a belt than it is to have your actions speak louder than your accessories.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Ranks above 5th are often difficult to quantify so it is difficult to say if someone should or should not have them. That being said, I have always thought of 10th as a sort of theoretical rank reserved for the founders of styles. This would equate to only one or maybe two people within a particular style having that rank. The upshot of this is that 9th then becomes the highest rank is the system.

I believe that if you have done the work and others recognise that you have, then you should be entitled to wear whatever rank you have achieved. Mr White's students may be right as to why he won't wear a 10th, but he might also be gun shy. Meaning that there are so many out there who claim such lofty positions without real merit, that he would rather not have people thinking of him in the same way. It would be unfortunate if it were the case.

 

[LawDog]

I think that everyone is worring too much about what rank and belt someone has. What everyone should be concerned about is,
*how much knowledge does he really possess,
*what kind of student comes out of his school / system.
If someone refuses to wear a rank out of respect for someone, that was their choice.
:asian:

 

[Drac]

If someone refuses to wear a rank out of respect for someone, that was their choice.
:asian:

Well said...

 

[LawDog]

Most Kenpo systems that I know of test for levels of black belt up to 5th or 6th dan.

 

[stickarts]

I think that everyone is worring too much about what rank and belt someone has. What everyone should be concerned about is,
*how much knowledge does he really possess,
*what kind of student comes out of his school / system.
If someone refuses to wear a rank out of respect for someone, that was their choice.
:asian:

I agree.

 

[MJS]

I disagree that the process would continue until everyone was just wearing a white belt.

In all Kenpo systems, there is a specific requirement of performance from yellow to first black. Some systems test for material after first black. Somewhere after the first black or first few degrees, there is no more tested material and promotions become political...and controversial.

Such as we've seen with Speakman.

Sometimes I wonder if some MAist find the task of building a lifelong reputation to be too pesky and cumbersome. After all, its much easier to have a stripe embroidered on a belt than it is to have your actions speak louder than your accessories.

This is why I dont like the rank chasers. When it happens, it happens, plain and simple. Show me what you can do, show me that you understand the material, show me that you can apply the material...those are the things I look for.

 

[MJS]

I think that everyone is worring too much about what rank and belt someone has. What everyone should be concerned about is,
*how much knowledge does he really possess,
*what kind of student comes out of his school / system.
If someone refuses to wear a rank out of respect for someone, that was their choice.
:asian:

Great points!!

 

[kenpostudent]

I see a purpose for rank from white belt to 5th black: it denotes your level of education in the system. What purpose does rank after 5th black serve? In the military, rank indicates a command structure. It tells personnel who is in charge in a given situation...or who should assume responsibility in a crisis.

We have no authoritarian structure in martial arts. Even if we tried to create one, in practice it would be far too circumventible. If I didn't like what one instructor says, I can go to another...that's what happens now. So again, what purpose is rank over 5th black? It is supposed to denote accomplishments in the art and one's overall reputation among peers. Is rank the best measure of that? Not when many 10th blacks in the system can't move even as well as 1st and 2nd blacks.

Maybe we would be better off adopting the traditional Chinese system: at 5th black one becomes a Sifu. Beyond Sifu, the only designation is the Sifu's teacher. Rank is useless if it can't be backed up on the mats, anyway.

 

[Ceicei]

I see a purpose for rank from white belt to 5th black: it denotes your level of education in the system. What purpose does rank after 5th black serve? In the military, rank indicates a command structure. It tells personnel who is in charge in a given situation...or who should assume responsibility in a crisis.

We have no authoritarian structure in martial arts. Even if we tried to create one, in practice it would be far too circumventible. If I didn't like what one instructor says, I can go to another...that's what happens now. So again, what purpose is rank over 5th black? It is supposed to denote accomplishments in the art and one's overall reputation among peers. Is rank the best measure of that? Not when many 10th blacks in the system can't move even as well as 1st and 2nd blacks.

Maybe we would be better off adopting the traditional Chinese system: at 5th black one becomes a Sifu. Beyond Sifu, the only designation is the Sifu's teacher. Rank is useless if it can't be backed up on the mats, anyway.

I really liked your points. You've made excellent ones.

- Ceicei

 

[eyebeams]

Maybe we would be better off adopting the traditional Chinese system: at 5th black one becomes a Sifu. Beyond Sifu, the only designation is the Sifu's teacher. Rank is useless if it can't be backed up on the mats, anyway.

Which tradition are you referring too? Most CMAs don't award belts at all.

 

[kidswarrior]

Sometimes I wonder if some MAist find the task of building a lifelong reputation to be too pesky and cumbersome.

But 'building a reputation' comes full-circle to the question of politics, no? After all, a good reputation is only what others say about someone--maybe it's well-earned, maybe it's borne out of a lifetime of self-promotion (witness a plethora of politicians whose self-promotion has gotten them elected, which fact must show at least that voters have some faith in their reputation). Is it possible self-promotion could be a cornerstone of some MA reputations?

After all, its much easier to have a stripe embroidered on a belt than it is to have your actions speak louder than your accessories.

But who will judge these actions, and how have they been screened as worthy? Who will have the final say as to another's worthiness as an MAist--whether the actions are truly up to the standard of the stripe level?

Obviously, I'm playing devils' advocate, but only because I wonder if we don't often travel full circle in our thinking about this. Beginning with: rank can and should be fairly earned; to: someone must pronounce our rank as being fairly earned; and finally to: who chooses the 'someone' who determines if another's rank is/was fairly earned? For those happily ensconced in large organizations, this is moot--they will always have seniors and examining boards. For those of us with more maverick stories, tho, ....

Anyway, it's late, I'm probably rambling, so if this makes no sense, apologies and please ignore. :asian:

 

[08Neely]

Interesting topic and one I may have something to add to.

I have recently returned to Kempo after a 10 year layoff, Masters/Villari/Cerio vein of SKK in the northeast.
10 years later in Arizona I joined a dojo that teaches SKK with some twists.
Funny thing is though that none of the Blackbelts wear degree stripes on their belts.
That was one of the things that struck me about this place, I really liked seeing that.
I would estimate that there are several 5th and above blackbelts here just based on them working with me.

Stripes on a belt are no roadmap to respect, as far as I am concerned any person in a Dojo that is willing to spend time as an instructor, student, or classmate is worthy of the same respect.

 

[Rob Broad]

If the person who is wearing the 9th has not done anything to advance the art and is only teaching what they have been taught in the past, then they should remain a 9th. If they have found a way to advance the art in a positive direction then they should be able to wear a 10th since it is no longer the original art, but a hybrid based up on what they have learned. Now for the caveat, they should not be able to decide when to wear that 10th, it should be bestowed upon them by their peers, and I am not talking about a good ole boys network.

 

[LawDog]

kidswarrior,
I agree with your statement that self promotion can create a reputation,(to a point).
End of line, Over time it will be what their students look like and how much they really know that will prove out any built / acquired reputation.
:yoda:

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

The way Juchnik Hanshi has set up Kosho Ryu there is no grade above 7th Black. He himself is 7th black. Most just wear regular black belts and if you want to know someon's rank you'd have to ask them.

For all the political & organizational mumbo jumbo he uses the Japanese titles you may have heard.

Shihan - lit. Shining Example - Not really a skill denotation but an indication of some organizational role. Rank req. at least 1st Black.

Renshi - a master - Organizational role and significant skill contribution. Rank req. 4th or 5th black (not sure)

Kyoshi - headmaster - Upper level in organization and upper level skills. Unlike every lower title these have the authority to promote to yudansha (black belt) levels. Rank req. 6th or 7th??

Hanshi - root master - This is the title Juchnik uses. In the SKSKI the same title was also bestowed on Thomas Young & Paul Yamaguchi.

Grandmaster was the title for James M. Mitose. What was told to me was that although Mitose gave Juchnik a Menkyo Kaiden (Martial Arts Mastery) & Inka Shomei (Religious Certification), which according to Mitose signified the authority to do with Kosho Ryu as he saw fit, Juchnik felt that the art should be kept in the family. Juchnik had orchestrated reconciliation between Mitose and Thomas Barros. So before Mitose's death, Tom was to take the system and become the Grandmaster but he was to be tutored in his family art by Juchnik. It seems Tom only wanted to be tutored for so long and eventually just assumed his father's last name and went with the Kajukenbo base he already had and blended it with what little Kosho he had learned from Juchnik. So, Juchnik doesn't claim to be a Grandmaster (though in the opinion of many he could, mine included) but only seeks to pass on & preserve what he's been given.

_Don Flatt

 

[Sukerkin]

Rank is a tricky issue in some ways and I have to say that there've been some very good posts in this thread already that hit just the right notes.

I count myself fortunate that in my art (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido) we carry no overt signs of rank. You judge by what you observe the rank a person is at.

For example, if I see my sensei performing a kata it is immediately clear why he is a 5th Dan Renshi and I am not - even if he were to wear an obi with additional insignia you wouldn't see it anyway as it goes under the hakama .

For those styles which do wear external signs of rank (which is most styles I would think), the rank structure forms a very valuable graduated scale upon which a student can measure themselves and set attainable goals. That's the raison d'etre for the system in the first place, after all.

Once you get beyond fifth dan tho', as has already been pointed out, that structure is no longer about skill and technique but about tenure and contribution. Those sort of distinctions are, I fell, better handled via the system of 'teacher' titles than additional dan grades.

One thing I believe, and this is a totally personal perspective, is that being too overt about rank gained runs somewhat counter to the philosophy of keeping control over your ego that is central to many arts.

 

[Jdokan]

A matter of personal choice...For me I wear a black belt sometimes and then sometimes I wear my stripes depends on my mood....Right now I'm breaking in a new belt... In time I hope it begins to look like my old belt...
That will be good enough for me...
With regards to the amount of 10th out there....there was a great post somewhere one time as quoted from Prof. Chow....(very loosely) "There are so many 10th degrees out there now, I must be ranked a 15th". This is a very bad translation please forgive my memory but the intent of his words are what I remember more than the exact quote... Too many chiefs...not enough Indians...