Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

Loved it. Proper karate! Ok, I had to get past the hand being left out to dry but I can live with that for the sake of the demonstration.

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Well, that is done for the purposes of instilling the mental discipline I'm talking about. A curriculum such as yours takes care of that (standard, simplified structure) as one advances to more uncooperative & resistive situations.
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I'm not against resisting partners @ all. It's the time & place in the progressive development of mental discipline that I have zeroed in on....
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Athletic trainer's such as Matt Thortong are right to stress the subject of resisting partners / training. I differ in the emphasis and how resistance is employed to build mental discipline....

Where we disagree is that I believe he is right to be front on.

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No, actually we agree. My starting point for the illustration of Shotokan's value for self defense was to take the viewpoint of the visiting Shotokan master[?] instructor. IOW, he gave a great overview of the strategic SD importance of protecting the body's centerline / vital organs.
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Then, he turns around and head basically straight-in, not exactly. It shows in the tactical weakness of if his parry is off, he risks getting clocked in the head. The worst happening that can take place is to get struck in the brain-container.....

In terms of sabaki, if you are in what I would call a typical Shotokan stance you can't move easily and you couldn't step in to do those takedowns which are the bread and butter of my training.

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Following on our 'agreement,' the full import of what I said was, despite violating his centerline-protection maxim, there are advantages to doing the type of in-move he demonstrates. I wasn't thinking so much of takedown's which you would execute, yet he goes on to illustrate just that in Shotokan. The 1st move in positions for a complimentary follow-on. This is a tactical principle made plain in Ippon kumite, if practitioners would bother to take a step back and study the Shotokan handbook, use their 'nogin a bit.

The other thing I didn't see was the block to which you referred. To me there was a deflection which didn't stop the attack. That is what all the 'ukes' are.

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Ah, here we are at semantics, you being an expert in defining these close-quarter's exchanges. A block to me doesn't necessarily 'stop' the attack. The block diffuses the intended strike so that strike is [temporarily] neutralized. A hard block or softer parry then both qualify. The hard block is where more power or strength is required to neutralize the strike, the softer parry is where we only need to adjust the trajectory when it doesn't take much force, as shown here.... Of course, gradations in between.

They are receiving the attack and responding, just what Joe Mirza did here. Actually, I had to look him up because I really didn't think what he was doing came from Shotokan. Boy, was I glad to be mistaken. You have boosted my appreciation of Shotokan by posting this video.

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I'd say you're definitely using a grappling even aikido perspective here... The overall point I am making for Shotokan for SD is the quality of the training. The first part of that is too look past what Joe Blow is doing in kumite competition, in class, look past the McDojo pander to the commercialism, and get a hold of a couple of Shotokan karate manuals and read them.
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Also some of the books offered up in this T should later be of immense value. The first learning step is to understand the curriculum,and I would certainly start digging into the teachings of Funakoshi, then later Shotokan progenerators.... then tie that back to the experience in your dojo, changing if necessary....
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To become proficient at Shotokan, you have to go into depth. You can not just go with the flow around you & assume the conventions practiced around you will rub off into solid traditional karate.... No greater point made than that by the Shotokan instructor in my Tai Sabaki YT vid, even though he claims it's "simple....."

 

[ShotoNoob]

...The other thing I didn't see was the block to which you referred. To me there was a deflection which didn't stop the attack.

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Yes, the proper description would be 'deflection.' The Shotokan instructor makes that move @ about 1:02. The tactical objective I'm driving at is that the straight punch is changed from it;s course so that it misses the instructor's head. The threat is temporarily removed.
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On the attacker's hand hanging out there, he could well under proper boxing form, especially if it was a jab, snap that hand back. However, that does not change the outcome that the threat of impact was at the instant of his strike, removed. So, in a kumite combo form, really Ippon Kumite form, we are after acquiring tactical principles, not physical structure alone. this is one of the huge mistakes made in mis-judging Shotokan's karate certainly rigid, physically exaggerated, 1-2 form.
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Notice a watershed point here made by instructor, is his 'footwork' response to the attack. Unlike all that bouncing all over, particularly the overly-used and largely unproductive back peddling we see in competition sport kumite (and of course MMA, boxing, etc.), the Shotokan instructor meets the attack. He doesn't 'run away.'
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The Shotokan and other Japanese / similar karate styles we see in sport kumite competiton, kickboxing, etc. have the heavy, heavy reliance on moving back, back peddling ,circling away from any attack. This, as shown by the Shotokan instructor, is NOT the traditional tai sabaki implementation. The same is NOT what is described in the traditional Shotokan curriculum.
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Tai Sabaki, to meet traditional karate standards, it's implicit that it serve some tactical objective. Back peddling, running away, exaggerated mobility are a either a product of monkey-see-money-do OR a failure of mental discipline in executing the traditional Shotokan techniques & tactics. IOW, that worked for Joe Blow in his match a moment ago, OR I'm too scared to stand & fight / can't block properly, etc.

 

[K-man]

On the attacker's hand hanging out there, he could well under proper boxing form, especially if it was a jab, snap that hand back. However, that does not change the outcome that the threat of impact was at the instant of his strike, removed. So, in a kumite combo form, really Ippon Kumite form, we are after acquiring tactical principles, not physical structure alone. this is one of the huge mistakes made in mis-judging Shotokan's karate certainly rigid, physically exaggerated, 1-2 form.

you know what? I don't think we are too far apart in what we do.

 

[ShotoNoob]

@K=MAN
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Just take your strategic import re the grappling, I want to stress how the Shotokan instructor's tai sabaki movement in the YT vid, provides the Shotokan practitioner with the close-the-distance skill to entertain grappling tactics, whether such come from deeper study of Shotokan practices, cross-training observations from the Okinawan karates styles akin to your traditional karate definitions, or from Judo or the Gracie BJJ cross training, even Matt Bryers combative BJJ program.
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The Shotokan curriculum is much broader & comprehensive in foundational principles than the majority realize, certainly far more than karate critics realize.

 

[ShotoNoob]

you know what? I don't think we are too far apart in what we do.

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I applaud your move from the Japanese karate style(s) to the Okinawan traditional karate. Yet for so, so many, Shotokan with all its limitations, done well, studied seriously with an eye to the principles of Funakoshi, the earlier Okinawan masters, and the later progenitors of Shotokan, is very effective for SD.
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Another convention about Shotokan that is often overlooked, is the transition to a faster, more relaxed, natural poised art at the post-Shodan levels. Along the lines of your definition of KIME you made awhile ago. The way 'modern' Shotokan karate is practiced in Japan, which is then copied worldwide, tends to become fixated on the Shodan-level curriculum. Again, the Shodan-level curriculum does not define advanced Shotokan proper....

 

[ShotoNoob]

BOXING / MMA's ANSWER TO SHOTOKAN KARATE KUMITE
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Now in MMA or SD defense, the opponent may not just step forward and hang-a-straight-punch-out-there. Boxer's religiously train combos. In a SD fight, the opponent may well fling all sorts of rapid punches at you, intelligently or not.
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I stumbled across this MMA-promo vid for a strong boxing combo based on the hook punch. Hook punches, to me, are harder to defend since they arc in and are typically thrown without stepping from the striker's current position. Very often employed in combinations.

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I really like the presentation because as a non-boxer, I can readily grasp the dynamic.
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I quickly recognized, that the hook combo presented here, came across as the perfect antidode to Joe Mirza's Shotokan move-in parry & counter strike kumite combo. Here are my reasons:
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1. Jay Glazier is fighting Southpaw, which boxers claim is more problematic for conventional strikers. In a sense that is true here, because as Joe Mirza steps in, Jay's forward hand is ideally postitioned for the hook by-pivoting-only as he does in his combo....
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2. Jay's first left jab, really a feint, is retracted. That left hand is then cocked & ready to fire (as well as defending the face).
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3. Jay then immediately shifts & throws a straight right, which is facilitated by his more natural boxer stance. He gets some extra reach into your face that way.
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4. Result @ strike #2, if you are not faked out by the left feint, you have a strong straight right coming directly into your face.
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5. Finally, the deal-closer strong left hook comes arcing off the lead foot pivot and crashing into the side of your face / head.
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TYING BACK TO THE JOE MIRZA KUMITE COMBO,
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1. Assume The Shotokan instructor is not fooled by Jay G's left feint, and steps in to diffuse the hard straight follow-on right.
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2. Major problem is Shotokan Instructor's left hand is low guard / chamber to counter strike. Low guard has Shotokan instructor's head exposed on the left, the Shotokan Instructor's right hand is committed to the parry of Jay G's straight right.
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3. Likely Outcome. The Shotokan practitioner would get KO'd by Jay G.'s left hook perfectly positioned to strike the left side of the head.
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It's really [in a sense] a contest of who can execute faster, but here not against the uke's outstretched punch, but against a 3-strike combo of retracting hands thrown from solid boxing stances well positioned for infighting. Sort of a striker-equivalent of the Gracie BJJ grappling threat.
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I'll leave the answer to other MT posters.
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To me, the answer (in a word) is KIME. Also refer to the Shotokan karate traditional curriculum (IN IT'S ENTIRETY).
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Good Luck With That....
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EDIT: Also notice, that MMA proponent Jay G. stresses to keep your eyes focused dead on your opponent. Keep your attention on your opponent. A boxer version of KIME.

 

[K-man]

Another convention about Shotokan that is often overlooked, is the transition to a faster, more relaxed, natural poised art at the post-Shodan levels. Along the lines of your definition of KIME you made awhile ago. The way 'modern' Shotokan karate is practiced in Japan, which is then copied worldwide, tends to become fixated on the Shodan-level curriculum. Again, the Shodan-level curriculum does not define advanced Shotokan proper....

Ah! And herein lies what I tried for many weeks to point out to Hanzou. What he had learned was kihon and he, like many before him, never moved to the next level. But what was worse, based on his lack of understanding, he has become a detractor of the art, not the promoter that someone who truly understood what Shotokan is about, would be.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ah! And herein lies what I tried for many weeks to point out to Hanzou. What he had learned was kihon and he, like many before him, never moved to the next level. But what was worse, based on his lack of understanding, he has become a detractor of the art, not the promoter that someone who truly understood what Shotokan is about, would be.

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Our difference remains in that kihon Shotokan with strong KIME is very effective in it's own right. Mental discipline is the main driver striving for mind / body union. I would venture part of that came across in the Japanese Military story.
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Advanced Shotokan, which unfortunately is relatively rare IMO, takes on certain character of say for argument sake, Goju karate. Or what I would call Kenpo. Advanced Shotokan is still Shotokan but the character really evolves into more of a continuous moving process in the technique, as opposed to separate, rigid, blocky, heavy-physically tense movements... Some of the excessive hardness softens....

 

[ShotoNoob]

ON A HUMOROUS NOTE:
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In the Jay Glazier MMA Hook Combo Vid:
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See the guy standing to the left (to Jay's right)?
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He's a dead ringer for the senior-belt kickboxer student I defeated in my kumite illustration. That guy even has the same demeanor....
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He (my opponent) got schooled, in KIME....

 

[K-man]

In Chris Parker's terminology, "grab a coffee, this may take some time".

Now in MMA or SD defense, the opponent may not just step forward and hang-a-straight-punch-out-there. Boxer's religiously train combos. In a SD fight, the opponent may well fling all sorts of rapid punches at you, intelligently or not.

I would go one step further and say no one will just step forward and punch like that. Even an unskilled person will tend to throw wild combinations.

I stumbled across this MMA-promo vid for a strong boxing combo based on the hook punch. Hook punches, to me, are harder to defend since they arc in and are typically thrown without stepping from the striker's current position. Very often employed in combinations.

I agree that these are harder to defend ... if you are moving back. I'll get to that more later. The MMA video is training for competition. In the case of boxing people train to move back out of the way, we train to move in and tie the guy up.

I really like the presentation because as a non-boxer, I can readily grasp the dynamic.

As an ex-boxer, albeit many, many years back, so can I.

I quickly recognized, that the hook combo presented here, came across as the perfect antidode to Joe Mirza's Shotokan move-in parry & counter strike kumite combo. Here are my reasons:

I think you need to look at the context of Joe Mirza's video. He was training against a punch that he knew was coming. That makes it a drill, perfectly valid, but not something that can work like that in real life. In real life you will react instinctively and do whatever you will do. If you actually did that defence, great, but even then it doesn't mean the hook will be effective.

1. Jay Glazier is fighting Southpaw, which boxers claim is more problematic for conventional strikers. In a sense that is true here, because as Joe Mirza steps in, Jay's forward hand is ideally postitioned for the hook by-pivoting-only as he does in his combo....

That shouldn't be an issue for a karateka. We fight both ways so you can easily change kamai if that was of concern.

2. Jay's first left jab, really a feint, is retracted. That left hand is then cocked & ready to fire (as well as defending the face).

Which is the way I start most of my training scenarios. If you are lucky the attacker will come in with a wild haymaker. If he is more skilled you might get a jab/straight combo. It doesn't matter, unless you are training for that exact attack. Training for that exact attack is fine in theory but won't work in practice because our reaction time is slower than the time it takes for the punch to arrive, so we have to rely on what we train instinctively. I will instinctively move to the side but I do not know ahead of time which side that will be. I don't choose the side I move to, my reflexes choose it for me.

3. Jay then immediately shifts & throws a straight right, which is facilitated by his more natural boxer stance. He gets some extra reach into your face that way.

The square on approach that we train also gives that ability. That and the correct movement on the body to give added penetration.

4. Result @ strike #2, if you are not faked out by the left feint, you have a strong straight right coming directly into your face.

Trained to react to that first movement you won't be there for the right hand.

5. Finally, the deal-closer strong left hook comes arcing off the lead foot pivot and crashing into the side of your face / head.

Way too late. But even then, Krav's helmet defence which is very similar to the defensive move in Goju should protect against that type of tight hook.

1. Assume The Shotokan instructor is not fooled by Jay G's left feint, and steps in to diffuse the hard straight follow-on right.

Unless you step back you will not have time to assess whether the attack is real or a feint. In our training we assume it is real and take it from there. Either way it is really the same. Either it is a feint and the straight follows or it is a jab with intent and the straight follows. In each case I will be off the line and moving to tie him up to hopefully get his back.

2. Major problem is Shotokan Instructor's left hand is low guard / chamber to counter strike. Low guard has Shotokan instructor's head exposed on the left, the Shotokan Instructor's right hand is committed to the parry of Jay G's straight right.

Only if he is standing there waiting. OK for a hypothetical but he shouldn't be there in real life.

3. Likely Outcome. The Shotokan practitioner would get KO'd by Jay G.'s left hook perfectly positioned to strike the left side of the head.

I can't put that down as a definite. You are saying here that a skilled puncher (Jay) is a better fighter than a skilled karateka (Joe) based on a hypothetical position.

It's really a contest of who can execute faster, but here not against the uke's outstretched punch, but against a 3-strike combo of retracting hands thrown from solid boxing stances well positioned for infighting. Sort of a striker-equivalent of the Gracie BJJ grappling threat.

I'll leave the answer to other MT posters.

Yes, but again you are assuming that someone is going to just stand in front and exchange blows.

To me, the answer (in a word) is KIME. Also refer to the Shotokan karate traditional curriculum (IN IT'S ENTIRETY).

Good Luck With That....

I'll leave kime out of it at this stage because my kime would have me somewhere else.

EDIT: Also notice, that MMA proponent Jay G. stresses to keep your eyes focused dead on your opponent. Keep your attention on your opponent. A boxer version of KIME.

Now here is a major difference of approach. I teach NOT to be focussed on your opponent. That is a sport concept. Every other situation requires the use of peripheral vision. I suspect that the 'focussed' that you are talking of here, ties in with your concept of kime. On that we'll have to agree to disagree.

Time for that second coffee.

 

[drop bear]

The Shotokan and other Japanese / similar karate styles we see in sport kumite competiton, kickboxing, etc. have the heavy, heavy reliance on moving back, back peddling ,circling away from any attack. This, as shown by the Shotokan instructor, is NOT the traditional tai sabaki implementation. The same is NOT what is described in the traditional Shotokan curriculum.

And if you are getting overwhelmed and cannot counter punch in the same time as they can put on a flurry. You don't have the footwork to create space and time advantages.

Of course all solved by mental acuity right?

 

[drop bear]

That shouldn't be an issue for a karateka. We fight both ways so you can easily change kamai if that was of concern.

Front leg to front leg has a few tricks and traps that can catch you out if you don't understand the differences.

If you have to switch when they switch then they are controlling you.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Thanks for your well-considered and sensei level reply. Frankly your teachings are missing from about 95% (for argument sake) from the the knowledge of those critical of karate.

In Chris Parker's terminology, "grab a coffee, this may take some time". I would go one step further and say no one will just step forward and punch like that. Even an unskilled person will tend to throw wild combinations.

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I don' quite agree. However from your standpoint of a self-defense expert; I can agree wholly in principle...No Problem.

I agree that these are harder to defend ... if you are moving back. I'll get to that more later. The MMA video is training for competition. In the case of boxing people train to move back out of the way, we train to move in and tie the guy up.

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I see the general tactical advantage of your approach, having read & re-read your material & postings. However, under my principles including KIME as a mental process, I'm not so limited. I think the challenge of a hook is physically harder to stop than a straight, coming from the side, arcing, in combination as set forth in the Jay G. demo. His demo is kind of the opposite end-of-the-spectrum to the the step-&-straight-punch-only scenario. An escalation in complexity, if you will.

As an ex-boxer, albeit many, many years back, so can I.

. I never boxed.

I think you need to look at the context of Joe Mirza's video. He was training against a punch that he knew was coming. That makes it a drill, perfectly valid, but not something that can work like that in real life.

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See my complexity comment just above. The context for the Joe Mirza exercise, to me, is a mental one, KIME centric. The concept of mental KIME, of mental discipline in traditional karate is universal, the Joe Mirza kumite combo is, in principle, directly applicable to real life.

In real life you will react instinctively and do whatever you will do. If you actually did that defence, great, but even then it doesn't mean the hook will be effective.

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On the hook judged as automatically effective, I took the antagonist view for a moment. My supposition is that if you took the average, conventional Shotokan kumite competitor and put up against Jay G.'s hook / combo, the Shotokan kumite competitor would lose.
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On instinct, I am moving ahead of instinct in my fighting. I can see your position that in certain SD situations, instinct is all the mental capability one may have.

That shouldn't be an issue for a karateka. We fight both ways so you can easily change kamai if that was of concern.

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I'll qualify: Someone of your capability; someone who has trained traditional karate diligently & intelligently...No Problem.

Which is the way I start most of my training scenarios. If you are lucky the attacker will come in with a wild haymaker. If he is more skilled you might get a jab/straight combo. It doesn't matter, unless you are training for that exact attack. Training for that exact attack is fine in theory but won't work in practice because our reaction time is slower than the time it takes for the punch to arrive, so we have to rely on what we train instinctively. I will instinctively move to the side but I do not know ahead of time which side that will be. I don't choose the side I move to, my reflexes choose it for me.

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Under strong mental awareness, my reaction time is not slower than the incoming strike. That's the key. The Shotokan karate manual lays out the terms for these mental abilities, defines them. Still, they are general concepts & principles,,,, leaving an emormous amount to be filled in by the practitioners own trainig.
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Good luck with that....

The square on approach that we train also gives that ability. That and the correct movement on the body to give added penetration.

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With your expertise, I'm sure it works; I can 100% agree on that as an ALTERNATIVE.

Trained to react to that first movement you won't be there for the right hand

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Again, Tai Sabaki, tactically intelligent movement.

Way too late. But even then, Krav's helmet defence which is very similar to the defensive move in Goju should protect against that type of tight hook.

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NOW, NOW, we're in a Shotokan T. However from an overall SD perspective, I say do anything to win the conflict. So bully for you....re KRAV.

Unless you step back you will not have time to assess whether the attack is real or a feint.

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I have, other than starting out in training, been able to distinquish a feint from a real strike. The key is KIME. see below. The Key is all the mental disicpline qualities outlined in Shotokan.
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2. Chung Shin Tong Il - Concentration (Clean, Clear / God / Govern / One) [Someone else with have to qualify the () meanings].
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Borrowed this from the "8 Key Concepts" Thread. Strictly speaking it's TSD. Yet another pillar pointing to or verifying the critical importance of mental KIME. We have Tang Soo Do explicity in agreement with Shotokan...

In our training we assume it is real and take it from there. Either way it is really the same. Either it is a feint and the straight follows or it is a jab with intent and the straight follows. In each case I will be off the line and moving to tie him up to hopefully get his back.

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By your definition of KIME, I would agree wholeheartedly.... Strictly speaking tactically, it is not the same; under your assumptions it is the same....

Only if he is standing there waiting. OK for a hypothetical but he shouldn't be there in real life.

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Under your expertise, or the way your dojo is training, probably not (he shouldn't be there). So I would agree. The conventional Shotokan stylist had better bone up, IMO.

I can't put that down as a definite. You are saying here that a skilled puncher (Jay) is a better fighter than a skilled karateka (Joe) based on a hypothetical position.

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Right. see above, on qualification. I was trying to illustrate the conventional Shotokan reliance on specific combos which would have to be adapted against more challenging opponent. Your change in karate style training has taken care of all that.

Yes, but again you are assuming that someone is going to just stand in front and exchange blows.

I'll leave kime out of it at this stage because my kime would have me somewhere else.

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You have a tactical reponse to be somewhere else. I have a tactical response to move in like you, and END the exchange by blocks & blows. I'll also wait, like Shotokan precepts, and allow he opponent to move first. This is easier. However, I can act simultaneously or per-emptively--all three under KIME.

Now here is a major difference of approach. I teach NOT to be focussed on your opponent. That is a sport concept. Every other situation requires the use of peripheral vision. On that we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Ah, I would agree completely with your position. I was complimenting Jay G. for stressing KIME, here on the opponent, as opposed to no real KIME. The specific KIME Jay G. was at least lauding too is spoken of in both Shotokan and Tang Soo Do. Jay's context is in an MMA match (sport). So bravo in my book for him.
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In the broader context of self defense, martial conflict in general, your perspective is imperative.
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Time for that second coffee.

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I missed a point. See below.

 

[ShotoNoob]

In Chris Parker's terminology, "grab a coffee, this may take some time". I would go one step further and say no one will just step forward and punch like that. Even an unskilled person will tend to throw wild combinations....
...Training for that exact attack is fine in theory but won't work in practice because our reaction time is slower than the time it takes for the punch to arrive, so we have to rely on what we train instinctively. I will instinctively move to the side but I do not know ahead of time which side that will be. I don't choose the side I move to, my reflexes choose it for me.

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You mean you haven't learned from the practice of traditional karate how to think into action faster than your opponent can move.

 

[RafaChan]

BTW, Shihon Nukite is a great way to break your fingers.

I have found this statement interesting coz i know people that have used this technique and their fingers didnt brake like u said. I have two answers for you. Conditioning and soft. If you are talking about chances, yes, it can happen. Mostly if you doesnt aim for a soft part of the body (such as throat or solar plexus like i was illustrating) i advise to forget about nukites. All of the nukites techniques preferable aim soft parts and pierce tru them no matter how strong is the opponent.

If you doesnt have any type of conditioning and training like that:

i can say to you a punch its a great way to open your fist, broke your wrist or bone hand if you doesnt know what you are doing.

From my personal experience hit a soft part still more important than the conditioning part. IMO conditioning its complementary in that way and can make nukite techniques even hit hard stuff. Something like that:

01:28 you can see where sensei hits.

Nukites techniques goes along with other names in manny SD classes tru the most diverse backgrounds. Tru the military and police training to SD classes oriented for womens. Heres an example of that: Self Defense the chisel fist described here its ippon ken.

Shihon Nukite in the solar plexus if properly aimed can pierce in between the upper abdominal muscles to hit the diaphragm almost directly and make it wildely contract forcing a complete exhalation and make people lose breath for seconds while they can do nothing at all.

None of those techniques were banned in the early UFCs. Did anyone die or get knocked out by those techniques?

Nope. And there were quite a few karate blackbelts in those early UFCs.

Your UFC logic again. It doesnt exist in the UFC it doesnt exist IRL. Its very common sense that any strong blow to the front of the neck could be stunning or could cause choking, and these kind of strike its prohibited in manny sport competitions. Sometimes in its explicit rules sometimes in its implicit conventions when most striker arts such karate or kung-fu was reduced to only kicks and punchs. And thats since the pride championship era or even the war of worlds old gracie event, the tru ancestor of today UFCs.

 

[RTKDCMB]

None of those techniques were banned in the early UFCs. Did anyone die or get knocked out by those techniques?

Nope. And there were quite a few karate blackbelts in those early UFCs.

BTW, Shihon Nukite is a great way to break your fingers.

And how many spear finger thrusts were used by those fighters in the UFC? If no one used them then of course no one could die or get knocked out by them.

 

[Hanzou]

And how many spear finger thrusts were used by those fighters in the UFC? If no one used them then of course no one could die or get knocked out by them.

The better question is why were none thrown in the first place? If its such a high percentage move, we would have seen it being used in such fights to devastating effect.

The simple reality is that its pretty hard to finger strike someone in the throat or in a "soft spot" if they're punching you in the face. Especially when you've never actually trained yourself to use it in that situation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The better question is why were none thrown in the first place?

You would have to ask the fighters.

If its such a high percentage move, we would have seen it being used in such fights to devastating effect.

Who said it was high percentage?

The simple reality is that its pretty hard to finger strike someone in the throat or in a "soft spot" if they're punching you in the face. Especially when you've never actually trained yourself to use it in that situation.

It is not really a sparring technique against a rapidly moving target. It is more of a self defense technique against a stationary target such as when someone is getting in your face and grabs you..

 

[Tez3]

Spitting in someone's eye, raking their face with your nails, biting, scratching and nipping are all 'not used in MMA' but shouldn't be discounted for self defence. Houses for courses.

 

[Hanzou]

You would have to ask the fighters.

There's no need to. If a technique is all but abandoned, then its clearly ineffective.

Who said it was high percentage?

The poster I was responding to.

It is not really a sparring technique against a rapidly moving target. It is more of a self defense technique against a stationary target such as when someone is getting in your face and grabs you..

I can see the application in that scenario. However, that's not how it was used in the karate vids above. In the karate vids above, it was used as a counter to a person entering and punching.