Shotokan for self defence.

[seasoned]

I'm not putting in a plug for Shotokan. What I am pointing out is the fact that these guys are saying that the SD part of the system is in the bunkai, not in the sport side.

Bunkai meaning 2 person, kata meaning 1 person. Both = a whole. As this was pointed out earlier on in this post.
Most styles are valid for SD. Everyone will defend their given art which is ok, it's all good for discussion. I feel the OP is valid and gives food for thought to create a well rounded sharing time.

 

[Tez3]

Iain's take on kata, I would point out that while he aims his applications towards all karate plus TKD and TSD he is a Wado Ryu man not Shotokan. They styles are similar enough but there are some differences in kata, when demonstrating kata he will do the Wado version.
What are the true applications of Kata Iain Abernethy

 

[K-man]

Iain's take on kata, I would point out that while he aims his applications towards all karate plus TKD and TSD he is a Wado Ryu man not Shotokan. They styles are similar enough but there are some differences in kata, when demonstrating kata he will do the Wado version.
What are the true applications of Kata Iain Abernethy

Thank you for posting this article. It says it all. Iain has also put out a little where he looked at Goju bunkai. The truth is, once you understand the principle you should be able to explore the kata for yourself.

 

[drop bear]

Not being a Shotokan practitioner I have no idea of what it is about. As you are obviously more informed about kata than most of us perhaps you could give us your opinion.

But first a question. What has kihon kata got to do with what I posted? If you were really interested why did you not post some advanced bunkai demonstrating a real situation so we could actually discuss the value of the technique? You do understand kihon?

Here is some simple bunkai that gives a basic understanding of the techniques in the kata.

Now to my understanding, the Heian series of kata were instructional kata, not necessarily designed as a fighting system. The bunkai shown here is not realistic in that it is choreographed but that doesn't take away from its primary purpose, giving a simple explanation of the kata, but again kihon.

So, are there realistic applications with the kata that you posted? Certainly.

And another, this time talking about the angles shown in the kata and you can see the long stances being used in the take downs.

Is bunkai kata though? I would have considered it an application of kata. Even sparring would be an application of kata. Kata achieves one result. Bunkai another,sparring another. So for self defence you work through a progression.

That is why i did not present bunkai as an example.

And just like mma it is a progression. Line work,drills,resisted drills,sparring,fighting.

 

[drop bear]

ok this is kind of weird. A comment made here that "The kata is never wrong. My understanding of the kata is wrong"

Now unless kata has been thought up by god and not as i assume by some guy somewhere. This is going to not be the case.

Why would anybody subscribe to this belief?

 

[K-man]

Perhaps, but the quote in question was not rubbishing kata. It was offering a justification for kata. Furthermore, it was a justification that originated from a karateka.

Hmm! Well I think we are looking at this with different eyes. And, the 'karateka' wasn't a karateka. He is an ex Shotokan practitioner who dismissed Shotokan and kata as irrelevant.

You have offered explanations for how kata works. Some other karateka (including drop bear's friend from his gym) have offered different explanations. Perhaps your explanation is the correct one. (Or perhaps there are more than one "correct" explanation, depending on the situation.) Is it necessarily insulting if drop bear doesn't automatically trust your explanation over the one his friend gave? Would it be insulting to his friend if he accepted yours instead?

I have offered no explanation as to how kata works and Drop Bear has no karate experience apart from what he has 'seen'.

I'll have to disagree on that one. I can understand offering beginners a simplified explanation that leaves out a lot of the advanced subtleties, complexities, and "what-ifs". I can't support offering beginners an explanation that is flat out wrong on multiple levels and demonstrates deep ignorance of combative reality.

In that case I would invite you to examine the basic bunkai from YouTube and tell me if you would use it that way in a real fight. If the answer is 'no', then you are agreeing with me. If the answer is 'yes', .... well, we must live in different worlds.

This is kihon bunkai from my style so as to not denigrate Shotokan in any way. It is shown as a collection of techniques, not continuous, it relies on the attacker attacking and responding in a certain way (choreographed) and to me it is simply a basic explanation. If you reckon you could train like that and apply it to a pub brawl ... OK. It is not 'wrong' but it is also not a practical fighting application.

 

[K-man]

Is bunkai kata though? I would have considered it an application of kata. Even sparring would be an application of kata. Kata achieves one result. Bunkai another,sparring another. So for self defence you work through a progression.

That is why i did not present bunkai as an example.

And just like mma it is a progression. Line work,drills,resisted drills,sparring,fighting.

Without bunkai kata is nothing but a collection of moves. In other martial arts, bunkai can be partnered work so the application is passed along as it was intended. That isn't the case with karate. You may as well just toss kata out if you are not going to use it as it was intended.

 

[K-man]

ok this is kind of weird. A comment made here that "The kata is never wrong. My understanding of the kata is wrong"

Now unless kata has been thought up by god and not as i assume by some guy somewhere. This is going to not be the case.

Why would anybody subscribe to this belief?

The kata is the kata, in many cases tried and tested over a hundred or more years. The kata shows you what to do but you must be able to make it work for you. Some kata I don't find all that good for me. Others work really well, but it takes years to research these things. You could spend a lifetime on just one kata.

 

[drop bear]

The kata is the kata, in many cases tried and tested over a hundred or more years. The kata shows you what to do but you must be able to make it work for you. Some kata I don't find all that good for me. Others work really well, but it takes years to research these things. You could spend a lifetime on just one kata.

well strangely that depends on how long the idea that the kata is not wrong has been going for.

because obviously there is no reason to test something that isn't wrong.

 

[drop bear]

Without bunkai kata is nothing but a collection of moves. In other martial arts, bunkai can be partnered work so the application is passed along as it was intended. That isn't the case with karate. You may as well just toss kata out if you are not going to use it as it was intended.

Bunkai as an application of kata. Without resisted training bunkai is just a dead drill.

It is a progression. And without that progression you basically get that first video you posted.

None of these elements stand alone.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm! Well I think we are looking at this with different eyes. And, the 'karateka' wasn't a karateka. He is an ex Shotokan practitioner who dismissed Shotokan and kata as irrelevant.

If I'm interpreting drop bear's comment correctly, the anonymous karateka whose explanation he was repeating is not a member here and has not (so far as I know) dissed Shotokan or kata. Drop bear trains with karateka at his gym and when he says "one of our karate guys" I assume he means one of his gym mates. (drop bear, please correct me if I am wrong.)

I have offered no explanation as to how kata works

??? Weren't you just complaining that your explanations were being ignored and that it was insulting? I think I must be misunderstanding you somehow.

In that case I would invite you to examine the basic bunkai from YouTube and tell me if you would use it that way in a real fight. If the answer is 'no', then you are agreeing with me. If the answer is 'yes', .... well, we must live in different worlds.

Hmm. It's all rather stylized. Many of the techniques could work, more or less, although they would look a bit different against a less stylized attack. Others seem rather impractical, regardless of the style of attack. None of it seems as realistic as what Abernathy was showing in your second and third video. None are as bad as the first sequence in the first video you posted.

Either way, how does it mean I am agreeing with you regarding the original point? As I said before, I do agree that it can be useful to give beginners simplified explanations and exercises as part of the learning process. I don't agree that it is useful to give them fantasy explanations and exercises that will only serve to mislead them and build bad habits.

Getting back to your analogy of explaining the solar system to a five year old: I might say that the Earth orbits around the Sun. I would probably wait until the kid was older to explain that actually the Earth and Sun both orbit around a shared center of gravity which (due to the Sun's greater mass and size) is actually located within the sun's radius. I would not tell the kid that the Sun is Apollo riding his golden chariot and that he could wait until nightfall to sneak into the stable and steal the magical horses if he wanted to ride through the sky.

 

[K-man]

C

If I'm interpreting drop bear's comment correctly, the anonymous karateka whose explanation he was repeating is not a member here and has not (so far as I know) dissed Shotokan or kata. Drop bear trains with karateka at his gym and when he says "one of our karate guys" I assume he means one of his gym mates. (drop bear, please correct me if I am wrong.)



??? Weren't you just complaining that your explanations were being ignored and that it was insulting? I think I must be misunderstanding you somehow.



Hmm. It's all rather stylized. Many of the techniques could work, more or less, although they would look a bit different against a less stylized attack. Others seem rather impractical, regardless of the style of attack. None of it seems as realistic as what Abernathy was showing in your second and third video. None are as bad as the first sequence in the first video you posted.

Either way, how does it mean I am agreeing with you regarding the original point? As I said before, I do agree that it can be useful to give beginners simplified explanations and exercises as part of the learning process. I don't agree that it is useful to give them fantasy explanations and exercises that will only serve to mislead them and build bad habits.

Getting back to your analogy of explaining the solar system to a five year old: I might say that the Earth orbits around the Sun. I would probably wait until the kid was older to explain that actually the Earth and Sun both orbit around a shared center of gravity which (due to the Sun's greater mass and size) is actually located within the sun's radius. I would not tell the kid that the Sun is Apollo riding his golden chariot and that he could wait until nightfall to sneak into the stable and steal the magical horses if he wanted to ride through the sky.

Cool. I've put my position. The karateka I was referring to was Hanzou not some 'someone I know'.

 

[K-man]

Bunkai as an application of kata. Without resisted training bunkai is just a dead drill.

It is a progression. And without that progression you basically get that first video you posted.

None of these elements stand alone.

Bunkai is not a drill and it is resisted. I have explained that to you many times in the past so I will not bother discussing it further. You stick to what you believe and I will continue teaching what I teach.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

C

The karateka I was referring to was Hanzou not some 'someone I know'.

I assumed that was who you meant. However, unless I'm totally misunderstanding drop bear, that's not the person who gave him the explanation for kata that he was repeating.

 

[Hanzou]

In an earlier thread a member who claims to be 'highly ranked' in Shotokan was rubbishing it as being pretty much useless for 'real' fighting. My view has been that Shotokan, like most Japanese karate, has moved away from its roots in to a more competition based style of karate but here is an opinion that I came across that gives an alternate opinion.

Where did I say Shotokan was useless for "real" fighting? WTH are you even talking about?

We have had numerous discussions on the value of kata, or forms, and again, our 'highly ranked' Shotokan practitioner is dismissive of any value of the kata.

I'm dismissive of it because I feel that training time can be better utilized elsewhere. Your videos showcasing nonsensical bunkai only confirms that opinion. No one is going to come at you in a deep front stance, performing a reverse punch. People fight in narrow stances in order to remain mobile, which is why double leg takedowns are so effective.

Personally, 30 minutes of hard, full contact sparring against a variety of opponents would be a better use of training time than 30 minutes doing pre-arranged patterns from the 1920s.

However, that's just my opinion.

The author of this article has a different view ...

Considering that his Shotokan dojo has to compete against MMA and Bjj schools for students, that doesn't surprise me. His snide shot at the MMA community didn't go unnoticed.

 

[K-man]

Where did I say Shotokan was useless for "real" fighting? WTH are you even talking about?

In your early posts you wrote of how your Shotokan training was a total waste of time. I'm not going to go trawling to find it. If your now saying your karate training was worthwhile then good for you.

I'm dismissive of it because I feel that training time can be better utilized elsewhere. Your videos showcasing nonsensical bunkai only confirms that opinion. No one is going to come at you in a deep front stance, performing a reverse punch. People fight in narrow stances in order to remain mobile, which is why double leg takedowns are so effective.

You can have whatever opinion you like but perhaps you should read the post before making the comment you did. I am not suggesting the nonsensical bunkai is in any way effective, and for what it's worth I don't teach any punch from a deep stance. The deep stance had other uses.

Personally, 30 minutes of hard, full contact sparring against a variety of opponents would be a better use of training time than 30 minutes doing pre-arranged patterns from the 1920s.

However, that's just my opinion.

It depends what you are talking about. Are you talking about doing 30 minutes of kata or 30 minutes of unscripted resisted bunkai. If it is the former, I will agree. If it is the latter I would rather have the bunkai, but then as the bunkai is not prearranged I presume you are going back to the kihon yet again to back your position.

Considering that his Shotokan dojo has to compete against MMA and Bjj schools for students, that doesn't surprise me. His snide shot at the MMA community didn't go unnoticed.

This is a snide shot, really? What? Claiming your martial art is as effective on the street as MMA is a snide shot.

Grapplers, Thai boxers and mixed-martial arts enthusiasts claim their techniques can help you escape such deadly confrontations — and they’re right. But they’re not your only options. Traditional arts such as shotokan karate can help you repel an attacker just as effectively.

 

[Hanzou]

In your early posts you wrote of how your Shotokan training was a total waste of time. I'm not going to go trawling to find it. If your now saying your karate training was worthwhile then good for you.

Yes, a total waste of MY time. I can't speak for anyone else, including the people I trained with. If I could convert the 8 years I spent with Karate and change it to 8 years of MT or Boxing, I'd do so in a heartbeat.

You can have whatever opinion you like but perhaps you should read the post before making the comment you did. I am not suggesting the nonsensical bunkai is in any way effective, and for what it's worth I don't teach any punch from a deep stance. The deep stance had other uses.

I'm just going on the videos you posted. I simply don't find Bunkai to be realistic training at all. It's like practicing idealistic scenarios that aren't going to happen when the chips come crashing down. Its just so unnatural and rehearsed that it stands out to me like a sore thumb. What makes it worse is that I have YET to see a Karateka fight this way. Even amazing ones like Loyoto Machida doesn't fight the way they're fighting in Bunkai training.

It depends what you are talking about. Are you talking about doing 30 minutes of kata or 30 minutes of unscripted resisted bunkai. If it is the former, I will agree. If it is the latter I would rather have the bunkai, but then as the bunkai is not prearranged I presume you are going back to the kihon yet again to back your position.

I'm talking about this;

Those karatekas learned more in 30 seconds of getting their clocks cleaned, than in 30 minutes of doing Kata or Bunkai.

This is a snide shot, really? What? Claiming your martial art is as effective on the street as MMA is a snide shot.

Yes. Context is everything.

 

[drop bear]

If I'm interpreting drop bear's comment correctly, the anonymous karateka whose explanation he was repeating is not a member here and has not (so far as I know) dissed Shotokan or kata. Drop bear trains with karateka at his gym and when he says "one of our karate guys" I assume he means one of his gym mates. (drop bear, please correct me if I am wrong.)

Yeah that is on the money.

 

[drop bear]

Either way, how does it mean I am agreeing with you regarding the original point? As I said before, I do agree that it can be useful to give beginners simplified explanations and exercises as part of the learning process. I don't agree that it is useful to give them fantasy explanations and exercises that will only serve to mislead them and build bad habits

Yeah that is almost a thread in itself. For beginners there is almost a different level of truth than an advanced guy gets. As a quick example there is no right hooks in boxing. Which is what a beginner gets. But there is right hooks if you have certain positions.

 

[drop bear]

Bunkai is not a drill and it is resisted. I have explained that to you many times in the past so I will not bother discussing it further. You stick to what you believe and I will continue teaching what I teach.

It looks like a drill. How is it not a drill