Shootings in Europe even with gun control...

[billc]

I am putting this is a seperate location because I hadn't heard of a lot of these shootings and our press apparently doesn't think they are relevant in our current discussion on gun control...Some of the stories below are duplicated by the two links...but there are many that aren't...

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20110410-330320/Mass-shootings-in-EuropeFacts

Mass shootings in Europe—Facts

Agence France-Presse
First Posted 03:27:00 04/10/2011

Filed Under: Europe, Armed conflict, Children, Schools,People, Curiosities
PARIS?Following are the worst mass shootings in Europe, after a gunman opened fire in a packed mall in The Netherlands Saturday, killing six people and wounding at least 10 others before shooting himself dead.

- September 24, 1995 - France
Sixteen people are killed and many injured in the southern French towns of Sollies-le-Pont and Cuers when a 17-year-old boy goes on a shooting rampage. He kills himself a few hours after the carnage.

- March 13, 1996 - Scotland
A deranged gun collector kills 16 children aged four to six and their teacher at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. He then kills himself.

- September 27, 2001 - Switzerland
A man bursts into the local assembly in the central Swiss town of Zug and opens fire, killing 14 and then turning the gun on himself.

- March 27, 2002 - France
Eight people are killed and 19 injured when a man opens fire on members of the municipal council of Nanterre, a region of Paris. He kills himself the next day while in police custody.

- April 26, 2002 - Germany
Sixteen people, including 12 teachers and two students, are gunned down at a school in Erfurt in eastern Germany by a 19-year-old former student, apparently in revenge for having been expelled, who then killed himself.

- October 15, 2002 - Italy
A recently divorced man shoots his ex-wife and her family and neighbours in the northern Italian city of Turin, leaving eight dead, before killing himself.

- November 7, 2007 - Finland
An 18-year-old man goes on a shooting rampage in a school in the southern Finnish town of Tuusula, killing eight people before shooting himself.

- September 23, 2008 - Finland
Eleven people, including the gunman, die in a massacre at a training school at Kauhajoki, Finland.

- March 11, 2009 - Germany
Nine pupils, three teachers and three passers-by are killed in a school shooting at Winnenden in southern Germany by a former pupil who then kills himself.

- June 2, 2010 - England
Twelve people are killed when a 52-year-old taxi driver goes on a shooting spree in the English region of Cumbria, before killing himself.

There are more here...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...cidents-in-last-25-years/Article1-892635.aspx

April 28, 1996 - Australia - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.

June 2001 - Nepal - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.

April 26, 2002 - Germany - In Erfurt, eastern Germany, 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a math test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.

Nov 7, 2007 - Finland - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse, the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.

Sept 23, 2008 - Finland - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.

March 11, 2009 - Germany - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.

June 2, 2010 - Britain - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.

April 9, 2011 - Netherlands - Tristan van der Vlis opened fire in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn, south of Amsterdam, killing six before turning the gun on himself.

July 22, 2011 - Norway - Police seize a gunman who killed 69 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in Oslo which killed eight people. The trial ended last month with Breivik saying that his bombing and shooting rampage was necessary to defend the country - prompting a walk-out by relatives of his victims.

 

[arnisador]

Sigh. This is why we have the science of statistics. What is the rate of gun deaths in, say, France, as compared to the U.S.? (Hint: It's less than one-third of ours.) Are you also making the argument that anything that isn't a 100% solution is a 100% failure, even if it greatly reduces deaths? I don't want to wait for the perfect world. If I can get fewer deaths now, I'll take it.

 

[billc]

Not the point. This just shows that no matter what, these things are going to happen, even in countries with extremely tight gun control...

Here is a list of even more from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

 

[ballen0351]

You want fewer deaths allow the victims to fight back. Allow more good guys to have guns to stop bad guys before they kill 20 people. If bad guy kills 5 and then good guy kills bad guy that's better then good guy not having gun and bad guy kills 20 then himself. See the. You get what you want less death

 

[James Kovacich]

It wont work. The majority of the public will not carry guns. That will just open more doors for bad people to get and carry guns.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[arnisador]

You want fewer deaths allow the victims to fight back.

Funny how the death rates are stunningly lower where this isn't true. If we use science--statistics--the answer is clear. If we use anecdotes and gun battle fantasies, well, then we get the status quo.

 

[Uncle]

Take a look at the gun ownership rates between Canada and the US per capita and the amount of firearm deaths/crime per capita and things are pretty clear. Also the fact we can't legally carry handguns except as a hunting backup may help.

 

[Tez3]

because Bill hates Europe.......it's full of lefties who kill premature babies.

 

[jezr74]

The Martin Bryant one you listed is being miss represented.

It is actually what caused gun control to be introduced in Australia. No mass shootings since.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[K-man]

I am putting this is a seperate location because I hadn't heard of a lot of these shootings and our press apparently doesn't think they are relevant in our current discussion on gun control...Some of the stories below are duplicated by the two links...but there are many that aren't...

April 28, 1996 - Australia - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not the best one to quote as it was this tragedy that prompted the buy back that rid Australia of most automatic and semi automatic weapons.

Dr Leigh said the buyback brought significant change.


“It took the rate of mass shootings down from one a year in the period before the Port Arthur massacre, to none since," he told Fairfax Media on Wednesday.


“It's easy to forget that these things were an annual occurrence – Port Arthur, Strathfield, Hoddle Street – mass shootings were a regular feature of Australian public life in the late 80s and early 90s.


“Most of the lives saved by the national buyback weren't from the mass shootings that were averted, they were from fewer gun suicides and fewer gun homicides, because mass shootings account for a very small share of all gun deaths.


“Our estimate is that the gun buy back and the associated tightening of gun control laws saved about 200 lives annually and that still continues, most of those in averted gun suicides."

http://www.theage.com.au/act-news/act-mp-influencing-us-commentator-on-gun-control-20121219-2bmjm.html?skin=text-only

Regardless of what is happening in the rest of the world you have a major problem in the US and there is no simple solution. Until there is a major change in mindset of the US general public, sadly the killings will continue. :asian:

 

[K-man]

The Martin Bryant one you listed is being miss represented.

It is actually what caused gun control to be introduced in Australia. No mass shootings since.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Didn't mean to over ride your post but I was obviously composing my reply to Bill's oversight when you posted. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Sigh. This is why we have the science of statistics.

Ever wonder what the statistics look like if you include all of the poor disarmed souls murdered by their own governments?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

This website is the product of a University of Hawaii political scientist who counted up all of the deaths caused by governments in the 20th century and subtracted deaths caused by war. The mass graves have 268,000,000 million people in them. Imagine if we collated the deaths caused by the governments of Europe and worked them into the statistics. How do you think the ratios would look?

America is hard to defend on many things, but on the 2nd Amendment, this might be the reason that during one of the bloodiest centuries in recent history, no one alive in America can even remember a mass grave.

Power kills; absolute power kills absolutely.
----This Web Site

 

[WC_lun]

Almost 32 people die a day in murders committed with a gun in the US. Its all fine and good to show other country's stats, but honestly, I'd love to have thier rate of gun violence as opposed to ours. We've had 4 massacres in quick succession. I don't see that in any other country. Your post seems to indicate that gun violence will happen as long as there are insane people and guns. That comes under the heading of "No ***t" They do not happen as often. You can add up all of the European episodes and it doesn't come close to the number of episodes here. All your doing with your post supporting the unrealistic solution of removing all guns.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Ever wonder what the statistics look like if you include all of the poor disarmed souls murdered by their own governments?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

This website is the product of a University of Hawaii political scientist who counted up all of the deaths caused by governments in the 20th century and subtracted deaths caused by war. The mass graves have 268,000,000 million people in them. Imagine if we collated the deaths caused by the governments of Europe and worked them into the statistics. How do you think the ratios would look?

America is hard to defend on many things, but on the 2nd Amendment, this might be the reason that during one of the bloodiest centuries in recent history, no one alive in America can even remember a mass grave.

Are you arguing that the reason the US government hasn't killed large numbers of its own citizens is because the citizens might own a gun?

 

[Jaeimseu]

It wont work. The majority of the public will not carry guns. That will just open more doors for bad people to get and carry guns.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

This may be true. I don't own or carry a gun, and it has nothing to do with the law. I don't feel the need for a firearm of any kind. I feel like the chances of an accident occurring, or of something else bad happening, is more likely than me being in a situation where I would need a gun to defend myself. If I felt like I needed to have a gun to go to a certain place, I would avoid that place. If I thought I needed a gun to be safe where I lived, I would find a new place to live. I realize that not everyone has the ability to make that kind of choice, but that's the way it is for me.

 

[Cirdan]

Yes we have had massacres over here too. Still we don`t feel the need to arm ourselves to the teeth.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you arguing that the reason the US government hasn't killed large numbers of its own citizens is because the citizens might own a gun?

It's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how much gun ownership actually affects the amount of political violence, but it seems to make logical sense when you look at societies that are allowed to own weapons. Authoritarians find them entirely....unmanageable....lol.

So, the question that comes to my mind is that i wonder if the increase in social violence is the price that must be paid for the decrease in political violence?

 

[GrandmasterP]

Interesting stats here
http://www.juancole.com/2012/07/58-murders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us.html

 

[ballen0351]

Interesting stats here
http://www.juancole.com/2012/07/58-murders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us.html

I'm pretty sure you could compare the us and Britain in every crime stat and we would blow them out of the water. Rapes robbery burglary we are a much less polite and civilized nation. We have higher drug use higher gang numbers higher incarceration rates as well.

 

[Tgace]

We are still a nation only a few hundred years away from Revolution, Civil War, Indian Wars, The Wild West. Our national DNA is far far younger than that of the Old World. Actually...in the scope of history...I think our nation is unique is it's rate of advancement from inception to today. Look at how long and often Europe has set itself ablaze over the course of time. Every one of it's nations has a longer history of war, genocide, political violence and every other human evil.