Mass murder before 1967

[Instructor]

That's fairly precise. The Gun Control Act of 1968 broadly changed the way commerce and ownership of firearms takes place in the U.S.

Some say it's modeled on Hitler's gun control act of 1938-fact is, we had our own gun control act in 1938, that effectively took away machine guns and sawed-off shotguns from the general populace...

If they ever figure out a way to take the guns away (God forbid!) we (humanity) would just go back to killing each other with swords and spears again. You can't stop the violence only prepare.

 

[Flying Crane]

If they ever figure out a way to take the guns away (God forbid!) we (humanity) would just go back to killing each other with swords and spears again. You can't stop the violence only prepare.

yeah, but it takes a lot more effort to be as thorough about it.

I'd welcome it. Maybe that's just because I've got a head-start in the swords and spears department.

 

[Flying Crane]

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

I can't watch the video clip here at work, but that quote is priceless!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I can't watch the video clip here at work, but that quote is priceless!

You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Excepting Alice

all 23 minutes of it

 

[Flying Crane]

You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Excepting Alice

all 23 minutes of it

I'll check it out at home.

 

[elder999]

1890- US Army at Wounded Knee estimated 150-300 Lakota men, women and children murdered.

ANd let's not forget the particularly gruesome and reprehensible Sand Creek Massacre of 1864.

Of course, there's a difference between what billi was posting about originally, and genocide.



But it does bring up an interesting point-The American Indians were considered by many to not even be human, and part of the process of making an effective soldier is dehumanizing the enemy, as I've said before. Likewise, those who perepetrate these solo mass killings are incapable of seeing the humanity of their targets-they have dehumanized them-whether through a sociopathic lack of empathy, or real delusion.

 

[Cryozombie]

yeah, but it takes a lot more effort to be as thorough about it.

I'd welcome it. Maybe that's just because I've got a head-start in the swords and spears department.

I believe yhis is untrue. The deadliest School Rampage on record was perpetrated with Explosives... and that was before any idiot could run to Home Depot for all the supplies needed to make them, and 20 minutes on the Internet to make sure you are doing it right.

 

[billc]

Reading the article would help to put the short excerpt into perspective, which is why I always link to the article first...

However, one doesn't have to look very hard to find many historical examples. It took only about a half hour to find the following. And, to keep things on a relative apples-to-apples basis, this shows civilian on civilian cases only. It excludes examples perpetrated by soldiers, police or other government authorized actions or civil wars.

 

[billc]

A little more background on the American soldiers photo would be nice. Is this a battle, and which one. Remember, early Americans were killing each other long before the Europeans showed up on these shores and they were just as if not more cruel than the Europeans. I always enjoy when people try to compare U.S. Soldiers to the nazis, it shows their devotion to the American fighting man of today.

Besides, most native american deaths were from the spread of diseases from contact with new strains they had no resistance to, because of contact with Europeans, not murder, unlike the nazis who specifically murdered close to 15 million people all together. Before anyone talks about contaminated blankets, didn't happen, there was one case where a blanket that may have been infected was taken from stores from an infirmary, and given to an Indian ally by mistake, and there was already disease in the area because the people at the fort were already suffering from the disease, and had prior contact with the early Americans. There was a letter written from one British officer to another, not even American soldiers, who wished they could spread disease that way but it wasn't acted on nor did it become policy. In fact a great deal of effort was made at times to help Indians dealing with diseases, something you never hear about. It wasn't a tactic used to murder early Americans, unlike the nazis who specifically created ways to mass murder people, as well as the communists, let's not forget them. The communists murdered more people in more countries and they still show their faces in public.

On the sandcreek massacre...

Some bands of Cheyenne, including theDog Soldiers, a militaristic band of Cheyenne and Lakota that had evolved beginning in the 1830s, were angry at the chiefs who had signed the treaty. They disavowed the treaty and refused to abide by its constraints.[SUP][10][/SUP] They continued to live and hunt in the bison-rich lands of eastern Colorado and western Kansas, becoming increasingly belligerent over the tide of white migration across their lands. Tensions were high particularly in the Smoky Hill River country of Kansas, along which whites had opened a new trail to the gold fields.[SUP][11][/SUP] Cheyenne who opposed the treaty said that it had been signed by a small minority of the chiefs without the consent or approval of the rest of the tribe; that the signatories had not understood what they signed; and that they had been bribed to sign by a large distribution of gifts. The whites, however, claimed that the treaty was a "solemn obligation". Officials took the position that Indians who refused to abide by it were hostile and planning a war.[SUP][12][/SUP]

 

[granfire]

A little more background on the American soldiers photo would be nice. I always enjoy when people try to compare U.S. Soldiers to the nazis, it shows their devotion to the American fighting man of today.

A little more background?

Read Dan Brown, not the one with the code, but the other guy, 'Bury my heart at Wounded Knee' is a good start, covering several transgressions perpetrated by the army on the natives.
They usually involve something like shooting women and children down with Gatling guns while the warriors are out hunting....probably more natives were scalped than white folks....
Seriously, there is no real difference: the target is not human, you can abuse and murder them, they have no legal recourse.
So what do you think makes a difference? That the army was US and not German?

 

[elder999]

Reading the article would help to put the short excerpt into perspective, which is why I always link to the article first...

Uh, I'd submit that the Leni Lenape school killing, while reprehensible, would consitute and action perpetrated by military personnel.

 

[billc]

Here is a more fleshed out account of Sand Creek...

http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre.htm

Like most Denver citizens, Chivington was appalled when, on June 11, 1864, the mutilated bodies of Nathan Hungate, a rancher, and his wife and two children were brought into town and put on public display. The people were horrified, outraged and near panic. Trade on the supply trails was disrupted by raids. Food and various necessities were running short in Denver and other Colorado mining towns. More horror stories spread rapidly through the area.Governor John Evans and most settlers believed there was a general Indian uprising. Hoping to break up what he thought was a united Indian front, the governor sent messages to the tribes to report to certain forts where they would be provided with food and protected from troops looking for hostile Indians.

The stage was set for tragedy. The Cheyennes were becoming more destitute and restive. They continued their time-honored avocation of war against the Utes and the Pawnees. They frightened the white settlers as they passed by on their way to raid the Utes. But they frightened them even more on their return as they yelled and whooped and brandished Ute scalps. Small bands of Cheyenne and Arapaho warriors robbed homes and stole cattle, provisions and horses.Winter brought a lull in Indian activity. The Cheyenne and Arapaho war ponies were winter-lean, and besides, it was no fun to play war games in the cold weather. Old-time settlers said the peace during the winter was typical. The Indians always made peace in the winter–to get government blankets and food.Winter and peace did leave together. The Cheyennes were hungry, and they stole cattle on several occasions. Troops were dispatched to punish the guilty. Still, the attacks on white settlers and travelers increased in 1863, and the situation in eastern Colorado continued to worsen in the spring of 1864.

When Chivington and the now 'Bloody Third' returned to Denver in late December, they were greeted as heroes–glorious heroes. The 3rd Colorado was soon mustered out; Colonel Chivington's commission ended on January 6, 1865. By then, however, there were also some people who wanted an investigation of Chivington's actions on November 29, 1864. The 'heroes' of Sand Creek were being charged with not only having perpetrated a massacre of women and children but also having horribly mutilated the bodies of their victims.Actually, there were three official investigations. The Army conducted one and decided a court-martial was not called for. General Curtis said that the Army was so full of 'personal and political strife…it is almost impossible to get an honest, impartial determination of facts.'Congress held two hearings. A great deal of testimony was recorded by people who were actually there. The House Committee on the Conduct of the War concluded that Chivington had 'deliberately planned and executed a foul and dastardly massacre which would have disgraced the varied & savage among those who were the victims of his cruelty.' But the problem is that so much of the testimony is contradictory. Some witnesses stated absolutely that Black Kettle was flying a U.S. flag on a flagpole in front of his lodge and that he had a white flag right below it. Lieutenant Joseph Cramer, who had no love for Chivington, testified that he saw no such flag. Others also denied the flag story, and, in truth, it would have been very unusual for an Indian to have had a flagpole with a U.S. flag flying from it.There is not even approximate agreement on how many Indians were killed at Sand Creek. In his second report to General Curtis (sent December 16, 1864), Colonel Chivington said,'Between 500 and 600 Indians were left dead upon the field.' A Captain Booth 'counted' 69 dead, and Corporal Amos Miksch noted 123 dead. Others offered such figures as 148, 150, 200, 300, 400 and 450. The Cheyennes carried off their wounded and many of their dead, so no one was really able to say how many were killed that day.Nor was anyone ever able to positively say how many of the dead were women and children. The eyewitness accounts, again, vary amazingly. John Simpson Smith–a trader and an interpreter who hated the colonel, but whose testimony is frequently quoted as though he were unbiased–said half the dead were men. Ed Guerrier, a half-Cheyenne, said two-thirds were women and children. Corporal Miksch said only about 'twenty-five were full-grown men.' Major Jacob Downing testified, 'I counted about twelve or fifteen women and a few children.' Lieutenant Cramer said two-thirds were women and children, but Stephen Decatur, acting battalion adjutant at Sand Creek, claimed only a few were. Colonel Chivington testified, 'I saw but one woman who had been killed; I saw no dead children.'

 

[elder999]

A little more background on the American soldiers photo would be nice. Is this a battle, and which one. Remember, early Americans were killing each other long before the Europeans showed up on these shores and they were just as if not more cruel than the Europeans.

This is the aftermath of the Massacre at Wounded Knee, in 1890-though, like Sand Creek, it was called a "battle" by some at the time. In the photo, U.S. soldiers pose over a mass grave trench with some of the 300 bodies of innocent Native American Lakota Sioux, two-thirds women and children, massacred at Wounded Knee, Pine Ridge Reservation. One of the few survivors of the massacre was a baby girl, found 4 days after the massacre, lying beneath her mothers dead frozen body, her mother having protected her in death as she had in life. The baby girl, having survived the massacre and the blizzard with temperatures at 40 below zero, was then abducted by Brigadier General Colby as a trophy of the massacre, in his own words "a most interesting Indian relic."


Of course, these events occurred more than 100 years ago, and comparing them to Nazi atrocities has nothing whatsoever to do with the "American fighting man of today," or one's respect for them-asking "devotion," might just be asking to much, though, in the case of one of my oldest friends, Major General Kenneth Dahl (who is still just "Kenny" to me), it wouldn't be. Nor would it be in the case of the many close friends I have who are actively serving, or retired career military. Nor would it be in the case of some of my son's and daughter's friends and classmates-some of whom are no longer among the living.

Of course, I worked in a fairly close relationship with members of all of our branches of the military-with the exception of the Coast Guard, which doesn't have any nuclear weapons. I've even had short collaborations with members of the British military.

Impugning my respect for the U.S. military is not only completely insulting and fallacious, it's downright moronic.:angry:

As is, btw, your trying to color the Sand Creek Massacre as anything but what it was: the action of drunken soldiers, under orders from a meglomaniacal Methodist minister, perpetrated under mostly old men, women and children, who were camped under what they thought was the protection of the American flag. All of this is well documented, both in congressional testimony and the newspapers of the time. Soldiers paraded through Denver afterward with the removed,genitals of women displayed on their hats, and the skins of children stretched across their saddles.

WHen asked why he ordered the killing of children, Chivington had this to say:

Nits grow to be lice.

Which was only one of the worst things he said, but amply proves my point about dehumanization of targeted individuals and groups.



:angry:

 

[billc]

The images you showed matched nazis murders with American Soldiers, the time period in between wasn't highlighted, the fact that the killings were done by "American Soldiers," was. The inflated number for early Americans murdered by Europeans and Americans, as opposed to deaths by communicable diseases, were highlighted by "American Soldiers," in the photogragh. If you don't want your intentions questioned, be more careful in how you show them.

 

[billc]

Not trying to color anything, but there is more to the story than one photograph will show. Tensions and primitive conditions lead to people treating each other horribly, especially over 100 years ago when both sides committed atrocities against the other.

 

[elder999]

The images you showed matched nazis murders with American Soldiers, the time period in between wasn't highlighted, the fact that the killings were done by "American Soldiers," was. The inflated number for early Americans murdered by Europeans and Americans, as opposed to deaths by communicable diseases, were highlighted by "American Soldiers," in the photogragh. If you don't want your intentions questioned, be more careful in how you show them.

In my opinion, only an outright moron would question my intentions, or not see the relevance of the comparison.

 

[Makalakumu]

ANd let's not forget the particularly gruesome and reprehensible Sand Creek Massacre of 1864.

Of course, there's a difference between what billi was posting about originally, and genocide.

View attachment 17058

But it does bring up an interesting point-The American Indians were considered by many to not even be human, and part of the process of making an effective soldier is dehumanizing the enemy, as I've said before. Likewise, those who perepetrate these solo mass killings are incapable of seeing the humanity of their targets-they have dehumanized them-whether through a sociopathic lack of empathy, or real delusion.

So, what you are really saying is that the government locks up solo mass murderers because it doesn't like competition?

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe yhis is untrue. The deadliest School Rampage on record was perpetrated with Explosives... and that was before any idiot could run to Home Depot for all the supplies needed to make them, and 20 minutes on the Internet to make sure you are doing it right.

Did you quote me by mistake in this one? This doesn't have anything I can see to do with what I said...

 

[billc]

Here is another article on how both sides treated each other...

http://www.ohs.org/education/oregon...fm?doc_ID=5A99EACC-C709-746C-92D5469398A0502D

For emphasis...

The first major massacre of emigrants by Indians occurred along the Snake River in 1854 when nineteen overlanders were slaughtered by Shoshone Indians in what came to be known as the Ward Massacre. Six years later, the Snake River country would witness another attack, the Utter-Van Ornum Massacre.
The Utter-Van Ornum party left Wisconsin in May 1860, most heading for Oregon’s Willamette Valley. The wagon train—which consisted of eighteen men, five women, twenty-one children,

Contrary to cinematic depictions of Indian-white relations along the Oregon Trail, sustained attacks by Indians on emigrant wagon trains were rare. Although conflict did occur, historian John Unruh notes that “thievery and not murderous attack constituted the major threat posed by Indians.” In fact, mutual aid between Indians and overlanders was much more common than violent hostility. However, as the number of emigrants crossing the Oregon Trail increased over the course of the 1850s, Indian-white relations deteriorated. Unruh estimates that just over 360 emigrants were killed by Indians from 1840 to 1860, most of them during the 1850s. In comparison, he estimates that more than 425 Indians were killed by emigrants during the same period. The great majority of these violent conflicts occurred west of the Rockies, which was by far the most dangerous portion of the overland journey. The first major massacre of emigrants by Indians occurred along the Snake River in 1854 when nineteen overlanders were slaughtered by Shoshone Indians in what came to be known as the Ward Massacre. Six years later, the Snake River country would witness another attack, the Utter-Van Ornum Massacre. The Utter-Van Ornum party left Wisconsin in May 1860, most heading for Oregon’s Willamette Valley. The wagon train—which consisted of eighteen men, five women, twenty-one children, twelve wagons, and one hundred head of livestock—arrived at the abandoned Fort Hall on August 21, 1860, encountering no major difficulties along the way. A company of U.S. Army dragoons had been stationed near the fort earlier that year to escort wagon trains through the Snake River country, but they escorted the Utter-Van Ornum party for only six days, purportedly because the commanding officer was upset with members of the train. About ten days after parting from the dragoon escort, the Utter-Van Ornum train was attacked by approximately one hundred Indians, probably a mixed group of Shoshone and Bannock, perhaps accompanied by several white men. The attack and its aftermath are described in detail in the accompanying newspaper article. Eleven emigrants were killed during the first two days, after which the survivors abandoned their wagons and fled, splitting into several groups. The Van Ornums and three other emigrants were later killed in mid-October near present-day Huntington. Another group stayed along the Owyhee River, where they slowly starved. Five of the emigrants, four of them children, died while waiting for rescue, and the survivors were forced to eat the remains. They were finally rescued by the U.S. Army forty-five days after the initial attack. Of the original forty-four members of the Utter-Van Ornum party, only sixteen survived, including one of the Van Ornum children who was rescued from the Shoshone two years later.

 

[elder999]