CMA Translation Issues

[Xue Sheng]

I was looking at some other posts on MT and I noticed there are some problems with dialects and translation spellings that cause some confusion so I decided to post this in an attempt to cut down on the confusion or add to it depending on how clearly I type this. (That or we just call them all Bruce it cuts down on the confusion )

Dialects to consider are Mandarin and Cantonese when talking about CMA. Mandarin being from the North and the excepted national language and Cantonese being from the South; Guangzhou, Hong Kong, etc.

Also there are translation spelling issues and this is where it gets REAL confusing. There is the old Wade Giles way of spelling Chinese for English speaker and there is another Yale system that I know little about and there is the standard Pinyin that the Chinese government uses and the Schools in China now teach.

Now this will certainly add to the confusion

Example Choy Li Fut (http://www.answers.com/topic/choy-lee-fut) a Southern style
Cantonese Yale: choi léih faht
Mandarin Pinyin: Cài Li Fó

Also translated as
Choy Li Fut
Choy Lay Fut
Choi Lei Fut
Choy Lai Fut
Choy Ley Fut
Choi Lei Faht
Tsai Li Fo

And if you are use to Wing Chun in Hong Kong it is Yungchuan in Beijing and still a Southern Art.

And of course Shaolin in Mandarin is Siu lum in Cantonese.

Mandarin speakers say "Wushu" and in Cantonese it is "Mo Sut" which in English it translates to war art or Martial art and I believe it is actually something different in Taiwan, which is by the way Mandarin. Thus the reason for some confusion when an English speaking martial artist runs into a Chinese speaking martial artist that speaks English and discusses Wushu.

Quan or Chuan in Mandarin is Kuen in Cantonese and in English this means fist.

And I just found this out and you would think I would have known this a while ago since I knew both spellings existed Mandarin is Kung Fu Cantonese is Gong Fu in English Acquired skill

MANDARIN = CANTONESE = ENGLISH

Laoshi = Lo Si = Teacher

Shifu = Si Fu = Martial Arts Teacher Master

ZushiYie = Jo Say Yeh = System Founder such as Sun Lutang or Yang Luchan, etc.

Shisu = Si Jo = Your Master's Master's Master (In my case Yang Chengfu Shizu)

Shigong = Si Gung = Your Master's Master (in my case Tung Ying Chieh Shigong or Chan Shigong)

Wushu = Mo Sut = War art or Martial Art

Kung Fu = Gong Fu = Acquired Skill

And lastly as if you are not already confused enough

Pinyin to Wade-Giles to Zhuyin Conversion Table
http://www.library.ucla.edu/eastasian/ctable3.htm

Wade-Giles to Zhuyin to Pinyin Conversion Table
http://www.library.ucla.edu/eastasian/ctable2.htm

Wade-Giles to Pīnyīn and Yale
http://www.chinese-outpost.com/lang...n-comparing-wade-giles-to-pinyin-and-yale.asp

 

[kidswarrior]

Wow! I've been waiting for this post for a long time. Thanks Xue Sheng. I'll try to get it right from now on, or at least be more consistent.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Great post Xue. The Chinese language can be very confusing. I'd love to learn Mandarin. (I understand it's not only easier for English speaking people to learn, but also that it is more widely used by Chinese speaking people here in the US).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Great post Xue!

 

[funnytiger]

I will echo what everyone else has said and say it was about time we had a post like this!

However, I do have a slight discrepency with two terms. You have:

Si Jo = Master's Master's Master

and

ZushiYie = Jo Say Yeh = System Founder

I have never heard of the term Jo Say Yeh and have always been taught that Si Jo means founder of system.

Dai Si Gung (Cantonese) means your Master's Master's Master.

Kung Fu Magazine Online actually has an online glossary and just to be sure I looked up the terms there. I couldn't find Jo Say Yeh and it also states that Si Jo means founder of system.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/glossary.php

Other than that, great job!

- ft

 

[Xue Sheng]

However, I do have a slight discrepency with two terms. You have:

Si Jo = Master's Master's Master

and

ZushiYie = Jo Say Yeh = System Founder

Don't know, can't argue that point, I do not speak Cantonese (beyond saying Thank you), but I will have to check with my Taiji sifu, he does. And then I will get back to you. Not disputing what you are saying but there are sometimes different ways of saying the same thing in Chinese dialects.

But, the point of the post was looking for comparisons between Mandarin and Cantonese, wade-giles, pinyin and Yale to make a point that there is some confusion happening. Not really interested in telling people how to speak Cantonese, I am far from qualified to do that.

Also I do know that in Cantonese there multiple ways to say things. I was once tried a line of Cantonese on a friend of mine from Guangzhou and the line was asking do you speak Cantonese. He laughed said yes and then told me that was WAY too formal and told me a much easier and shorter way to ask, however I do not remember it (the last thing I need right now is to try and remember anything Cantonese and improve my mandarin, tried that once before and it was an abysmal failure). Same goes for Mandarin too by the way.

 

[funnytiger]

Its inevitable with most any foreign language that there will be multiple way to say one thing. lol

I understood what the purpose of your post was, but you kind of did slip into the giving cantonese/mandarin lesson there for a bit. I just want to make sure the information is accurate.

I do know that Si Jo is the cantonese equivalent to system founder, and that Dai Si Gung is master's master's master but am going to as my Sifu about Jo Say Yeh since he speaks Cantonese as well.

- ft

 

[Xue Sheng]

Its inevitable with most any foreign language that there will be multiple way to say one thing. lol

I understood what the purpose of your post was, but you kind of did slip into the giving cantonese/mandarin lesson there for a bit. I just want to make sure the information is accurate.

I do know that Si Jo is the cantonese equivalent to system founder, and that Dai Si Gung is master's master's master but am going to as my Sifu about Jo Say Yeh since he speaks Cantonese as well.

- ft

Thanks

I do not doubt your Cantonese at all and I do appreciate the corrections even if my previous post didn't sound like it. As I have stated a lot lately, I am just old a grumpy these days.

 

[funnytiger]

Thanks

I do not doubt your Cantonese at all and I do appreciate the corrections even if my previous post didn't sound like it. As I have stated a lot lately, I am just old a grumpy these days.

No apologies are necessary! We have a lot in common. You're old and grumpy and I'm young and grumpy. lol

- ft

 

[Xue Sheng]

No apologies are necessary! We have a lot in common. You're old and grumpy and I'm young and grumpy. lol

- ft

:lol:

So was I once... so be warned this is what young and grumpy leads to.

 

[DavidCC]

I was at a Chinese Restaurant last year with a firend and martial Atist and the conversation turned to kanji, and could the staff there read it, and tell us what they thought it said. We also got into the use of some words...

The funniest part to me was, we were talking about "chuan fa". now I can't remember too clearly, so maybe you can help me clarify this: but the way we were pronouncing "chuan fa" was "shuwahn fah" and they corrected us to more like "chawn fa'ah". Apprenty were saying something like "green onion flower", but there was also the issue of mandarin v cantonese. our mistaken pronounciation of the mandarin for "Fist Law" ended up beng the Cantonese for "green onion flowers" (or vice versa maybe) OK I know I'm not making sense but what I'm trying to say is -

I do Green Onion Flower style Kung Fu!!! ROFL

 

[Carol]

I do Green Onion Flower style Kung Fu!!! ROFL

:roflmao:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was at a Chinese Restaurant last year with a firend and martial Atist and the conversation turned to kanji, and could the staff there read it, and tell us what they thought it said. We also got into the use of some words...

The funniest part to me was, we were talking about "chuan fa". now I can't remember too clearly, so maybe you can help me clarify this: but the way we were pronouncing "chuan fa" was "shuwahn fah" and they corrected us to more like "chawn fa'ah". Apprenty were saying something like "green onion flower", but there was also the issue of mandarin v cantonese. our mistaken pronounciation of the mandarin for "Fist Law" ended up beng the Cantonese for "green onion flowers" (or vice versa maybe) OK I know I'm not making sense but what I'm trying to say is -

I do Green Onion Flower style Kung Fu!!! ROFL

Quán Fă

Fist Principal.

Can’t help with the Cantonese though as to what that pronunciation would mean although I am interested in hearing more about this Green Onion Flower style Kung Fu

 

[oxy]

As for the Green Onion Flower:

"fa", especially without intonation markers on most internet sources makes the word ambiguous. "fa" can mean: principle/law/method (as in Liu He Ba FA), flower (uses a different FA) or dissipate/neutralise (using yet a different FA).

Chuan/Quan, like all Chinese words whether it is in mandarin or cantonese or less common dialects are all monosyllabic. The vowel sounds are also much shorter than in english. A rule of thumb is that each isolated group of vowels delimited by consonants constitute one word and should be pronounced with one syllable. Therefore, the english like pronunciation of "quan" as "shuwahn" actually creates two words from one. Quan is one syllable with short vowels pronounced more like chwan than chu-an.

Other Chinese words that pose a similar problem is the word for six: "liu". Many websites, for some odd reason, propose a sound similar to the name "Louey". It actually sounds more like cross between "Lew" and "Lyou" ( "l" and "you" in one sound).

An example of how to separate a compound word into its component word is the compound word "putonghua" for the mandarin dialect. It's actually three words "pu", "tong" and "hua". So if you stick with this rule of thumb, you might find it easier to make less mistakes with words like quan.

As for the "Si Jo" and "Jo Say Yeh":

I don't know the actual characters, but I'm guessing the latter one is supposed to be "Jo Si Yeh", where the word "Si" is exactly the same one as in "Si Jo".

Also, "Jo Si Yeh" would probably be better understood if used as "Jo Si-Yeh", where "Si-Yeh" is a compound word. "Si Yeh" literally means grandfather of the teacher which is to say the master's master's master.

I have not heard "Jo Si-Yeh" being used at all, so I'm guessing it is strictly a cultural thing amongst Northern Chinese. If you want to be really confused about learning Chinese, you have to understand that many word combinations are strictly cultural. So while individual words when written are universally understood, how they go together makes it seem like multiple languages.

"Si Jo" would be the proper Cantonese for System Founder (loosely translated).

The word "Jo" literally means "early". When used in conjunction with words like in "Si Jo" you can see why the meaning changes slightly. ie, "Jo" changes from meaning "early" to something like "forerunner".

So the mandarin equivalent of "jo si yeh" might make sense in mandarin as system founder but not in Cantonese. This highlights the mistakes one can make when trying to use word for word transliterations across Mandarin/Cantonese.

I was once tried a line of Cantonese on a friend of mine from Guangzhou and the line was asking do you speak Cantonese. He laughed said yes and then told me that was WAY too formal and told me a much easier and shorter way to ask, however I do not remember it (the last thing I need right now is to try and remember anything Cantonese and improve my mandarin, tried that once before and it was an abysmal failure).

I don't think there's any secret that, in regards to using second languages, the safest rule of thumb is to go formal. In Chinese, you have a much larger chance of insulting someone with loose vernacular than you have with other languages. For example, one way of saying "good morning" in Cantonese is sometimes used in an underhanded manner as a way of telling someone to die early (the closest english equivalent would be "go to hell").

"Xue Sheng" (I guess because I don't know mandarin) means "student", but I'm willing to bet you can twist that into something undesirable.

Please make note that I have probably made mistakes. There's no surefire way of making sense of the many homophones in the Chinese language when using romanisation systems. Incidentally, this is the sole reason why China will never be able to resort to an alphabetic system, despite many attempts by some Chinese reformists to make such a switch.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I was talking to an officer from the PLA about bagua the other day and he told me that apart from being the name of a martial art and a divination tool, the term is also used to describe a person who is not making sense or is making something more complicated thanit should be as in

"He is bagua" or "he is talking bagua"

I was surprised to say the least.

 

[kidswarrior]

As for the Green Onion Flower:

"fa", especially without intonation markers on most internet sources makes the word ambiguous. "fa" can mean: principle/law/method (as in Liu He Ba FA), flower (uses a different FA) or dissipate/neutralise (using yet a different FA).

Chuan/Quan, like all Chinese words whether it is in mandarin or cantonese or less common dialects are all monosyllabic. The vowel sounds are also much shorter than in english. A rule of thumb is that each isolated group of vowels delimited by consonants constitute one word and should be pronounced with one syllable. Therefore, the english like pronunciation of "quan" as "shuwahn" actually creates two words from one. Quan is one syllable with short vowels pronounced more like chwan than chu-an.

Other Chinese words that pose a similar problem is the word for six: "liu". Many websites, for some odd reason, propose a sound similar to the name "Louey". It actually sounds more like cross between "Lew" and "Lyou" ( "l" and "you" in one sound).

An example of how to separate a compound word into its component word is the compound word "putonghua" for the mandarin dialect. It's actually three words "pu", "tong" and "hua". So if you stick with this rule of thumb, you might find it easier to make less mistakes with words like quan.

As for the "Si Jo" and "Jo Say Yeh":

I don't know the actual characters, but I'm guessing the latter one is supposed to be "Jo Si Yeh", where the word "Si" is exactly the same one as in "Si Jo".

Also, "Jo Si Yeh" would probably be better understood if used as "Jo Si-Yeh", where "Si-Yeh" is a compound word. "Si Yeh" literally means grandfather of the teacher which is to say the master's master's master.

I have not heard "Jo Si-Yeh" being used at all, so I'm guessing it is strictly a cultural thing amongst Northern Chinese. If you want to be really confused about learning Chinese, you have to understand that many word combinations are strictly cultural. So while individual words when written are universally understood, how they go together makes it seem like multiple languages.

"Si Jo" would be the proper Cantonese for System Founder (loosely translated).

The word "Jo" literally means "early". When used in conjunction with words like in "Si Jo" you can see why the meaning changes slightly. ie, "Jo" changes from meaning "early" to something like "forerunner".

So the mandarin equivalent of "jo si yeh" might make sense in mandarin as system founder but not in Cantonese. This highlights the mistakes one can make when trying to use word for word transliterations across Mandarin/Cantonese.



I don't think there's any secret that, in regards to using second languages, the safest rule of thumb is to go formal. In Chinese, you have a much larger chance of insulting someone with loose vernacular than you have with other languages. For example, one way of saying "good morning" in Cantonese is sometimes used in an underhanded manner as a way of telling someone to die early (the closest english equivalent would be "go to hell").

"Xue Sheng" (I guess because I don't know mandarin) means "student", but I'm willing to bet you can twist that into something undesirable.

Please make note that I have probably made mistakes. There's no surefire way of making sense of the many homophones in the Chinese language when using romanisation systems. Incidentally, this is the sole reason why China will never be able to resort to an alphabetic system, despite many attempts by some Chinese reformists to make such a switch.

I'm impressed! Not enough to actually do anything to learn the language myself, tho....:shock:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was talking to an officer from the PLA about bagua the other day and he told me that apart from being the name of a martial art and a divination tool, the term is also used to describe a person who is not making sense or is making something more complicated thanit should be as in

"He is bagua" or "he is talking bagua"

I was surprised to say the least.

Never heard that, but not surprised. Depending on tone and in some cases location words can have a whole different meaning.

xie xie (Phonetic: shay shay) is "thank you" in Mandarin. However if you hear it in a hospital it could mean thank you or diarrhea

 

[Xue Sheng]

This morning I realized something else that I should have noticed years ago.

If you go to Beijing and show someone the following words

"Tai Chi" or "Chi Gong" it is likely they will not have a clue as to what they are or at least not think what you think they are.

That would be pronounced by a Chinese speaker that is trained in pinyin (and they are all now trained in pinyin) "Tai Chr" and "Chr Gong".

In Pinyin it is Taiji and Qigong.