Shaking my head.

[geezer]

If there was one thing I learned from my sport law class, it’s that waivers never hold up in court.

True enough. On the other hand, not having a student sign a waiver that clearly states the risks involved could infer negligence on the school owner's part. That may be why my insurance company requires them.

...and yes, even though I run a very small club, I finally broke down and got insured.

 

[donald1]

"assume is to make an a-s-s of u and m-e"

What? I have never heard of this saying before... Although it would seem its mildly popular here.

 

[pdg]

"assume is to make an a-s-s of u and m-e"

What? I have never heard of this saying before... Although it would seem its mildly popular here.

The saying has been around for years...

 

[jks9199]

just because it may not hold up in court is not a reason to not use one. it could very well prevent a superfluous lawsuit. often people looking for free money. if they sign a waiver they may look somewhere else for their free ride because they know your going to fight it and your not a pushover. a waver is more a prevention measure than a cure after the fact.

While a waiver may not hold up specifically, it goes towards showing that you both warned the person, and gave them the opportunity to disclose issues. Broadly, and consult a lawyer familiar with sports/recreation issues for specific guidance, in Virginia, a person cannot actually waive their right to sue, etc.

 

[pdg]

in Virginia, a person cannot actually waive their right to sue

I'm quite sure it's the same in the UK, but as you said a waiver shows the person was made aware of risks (or was at least given reasonable opportunity) and unless any injury was due to actual negligence or deliberate excessive force then it pretty much holds.

 

[jks9199]

I'm quite sure it's the same in the UK, but as you said a waiver shows the person was made aware of risks (or was at least given reasonable opportunity) and unless any injury was due to actual negligence or deliberate excessive force then it pretty much holds.

Doesn't work reliably that way. Each state in the US is a different legal system, and in Virginia, I know that waivers don't carry much weight. It's really a specialized area of sports/rec law, so I'm not comfortable going on at length. I've audited some classes on it, but the bottom line is that it is pretty difficult to preemptively waive rights to sue here.

 

[pdg]

Doesn't work reliably that way. Each state in the US is a different legal system, and in Virginia, I know that waivers don't carry much weight. It's really a specialized area of sports/rec law, so I'm not comfortable going on at length. I've audited some classes on it, but the bottom line is that it is pretty difficult to preemptively waive rights to sue here.

Certainly a complex and variable situation.

On balance though, probably better to have one than not (might not be able to indemnify you, but surely can't hurt).

 

[jks9199]

Certainly a complex and variable situation.

On balance though, probably better to have one than not (might not be able to indemnify you, but surely can't hurt).

Absolutely! If nothing else, it supports basic diligence. Especially if you have a notice along the lines of "Please advise us of any injuries or medical conditions..." and they respond with NONE... then claim one later.

 

[pdg]

Thinking about it - would it be better to call such document something along the lines of "notification and acceptance of risk agreement" rather than a "waiver"?

Waiver may imply that one or both parties is expecting relinquishment of legal rights.

 

[watching]

In the end this is our fault, but a guy came in wanting to try us out. We got him on the mat and we're showing him some throws, dude labds on his back and is in pain. Gets up and says he had lower back surgery....

Why in the world would you think "let's try learning martial arts now before I am healed up."? So he left and said he'd come back later. We forgot to ask about any medical issues first but it was assumed he was fit for it since he volunteered himself.

There may have been an expectation on the visitor's part that the first introductory class would be very low key and low contact. I have never been in an introductory class at any MA school and been taken to the ground. I guess full disclosure of the level of contact and physical activity is in yours and potential student's best interest.

 

[dvcochran]

The main purpose of a waiver is three-part, IMO. Firstly, it does provide some protection, though not by it being binding - it just shows the signer was made aware of risks, which matters to some extent. Secondly, it possibly weeds out some of the insurance scammers - I've had more than one instructor tell them someone refused to sign their waiver. Thirdly, and most important for most students, it is a way to remind folks there's some risk and to get them to focus on that topic for a few moments.

Well said, I do remember a few raised eyebrows over the years but do remember someone refusing to sign. I had two waivers, one for the one week trial classes and a presumed more binding document for membership.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well said, I do remember a few raised eyebrows over the years but do remember someone refusing to sign. I had two waivers, one for the one week trial classes and a presumed more binding document for membership.

Yeah, if someone refused to sign, all they'd be allowed to do is watch. Every athletic (or even semi-athletic) event in the US has a basic waiver, so I feel no qualms about making the signature a requirement for participation. I would consider letting them participate if they refused to sign the other side (media release), because that only creates a minor headache for me (and someone unwilling to sign that probably won't stay for very long).