my muay thai sensei :)

[donnaTKD]

i use wolf gym sometimes - i like the instructors that are in there my usual muay thai dojo is in a state of transition at the moment getting revamped so am using their excellent facilities to train in --- am thinking that after everything that's gone on i might use wolf gym as my permanent muay thai dojo also they don't do TKD there at all cos i asked them about that but they said that it's all MT which suits me

the TKD dojo takes place in a leisure centre in Penmaenmawr near my house in Llanfairfechan --- tbh i spend most of my time in warrington cos of the work that i do --- i find that there arre more rally teams operating in and around warrington / manchester / liverpool that need specialist services. i get quite a lot of work at home in wales cos of the numerous rally stage tracks that are there and people want local services so that's why i chose to go to the TKD dojo in Pen.

donna

 

[Chris Parker]

So that's a no, then, yeah? Cool. I was just wondering as that's the only hit that comes up for Warrington Kickboxing (as in your profile), and it has quite a number of the details you've mentioned (the use of Japanese terminology for non-Japanese systems and methodologies).

That said, the inconsistencies with your comments are a little concerning. I'm not saying that what you're getting there isn't any good, but I'd have some major concerns in both cases if a TKD instructor or a muay Thai coach were using terms like "Sensei", "Dojo", "Dan" (for ranking… specifically for the muay Thai). I know you have a personal connection/debt to the coach, but to look at it objectively, there are some major questions there…

 

[donnaTKD]

sorry for not being clear - that's the wolf gym in your link the one i've been using recently and the very same one as indicated in my profile.

apologies for the lack of clarity - my bad

after the comments that i've read on these boards i can understand your wariness towards this place - the way i see it is that muay thai only has one belt and that's a black armband - these guys have their own system. the training is the same as my old place so for me there is no difference.

i was brought up in this system and dojo is what everyone calls the place - i call it a gym normally. the instructor 4th and 5th dan kickbox - had me wondering a bit too cos the armband system that's internationally recognised is a black one to prove that you're fight ready in my book - i know that they have a belt system and run b/b courses but that's internal stuff again they use it as gauge for sparring but they do also send people into other competitions which got me a bit cos there's only one recognised belt in muay thai and no dan structure for it either - you're either fight ready or you're not in my book but i have to play by their rules........

donna

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay. The thing is, Dan ranking doesn't exist in muay Thai. Dojo is the name for a Japanese training hall (a Korean one [TKD] is a dojang, a Chinese one is a kwoon etc), and so forth. The ranking lists/instructor profiles on the Okami Dojo/Wolf Gym page are just as inconsistent… the founder/head of the gym trained primarily in muay Thai (in Thailand, where he was a live-in student… and again references the Japanese terminology of "uchi deshi"… as well as in the UK), and the only link to anything Japanese seems to be a couple of entrants in the K-1 kickboxing tournament in the early 2000's… from which they claim Dan ranking in the tournament… even though it doesn't have any such ranking itself. Then there's a mention of "Kakuto (Combat) Karate", which, for all intents and purposes, doesn't actually exist as a system in and of itself, but they claim dan ranking in it as well… all the images are of muay Thai clothing, methodology, technique, set-up, equipment etc… except for obi worn over the shorts, for some reason… and it all looks rather suspect.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually, the idea of the arm band indicating any rank at all is neither traditional nor universal in Muay Thai. Traditionally the arm band is more of a good luck charm. Some instructors have started using an arm band rank system for their western students, but I don't know if the practice is particularly widespread.

The idea of grafting Japanese terminology and ranking onto a Thai system may seem a bit off from a cultural standpoint, but I don't have any real objections as long as the students understand that it is just an in-house tool.

I think that some instructors stretch things a bit to advertise qualifications that they think students want to see. Take the head instructor at Wolf Gym - he appears to be a well qualified Muay Thai trainer with a record of training successful competitors. That should be all he needs to attract students. However he also advertises a 6th degree black belt from the WKA and the BCKA. The problem is, the WKA is a sanctioning body for competition, not an instructional organization. I also can't find anything on the BCKA site which states that they test for issuing rank. More telling, he doesn't list any instructors that he trained under who promoted him to that rank. He doesn't even list any time spent training in karate! It's pretty clear that he simply paid the fee for those organizations to print out a certificate so he could have a rank which he thought looked impressive. That's not to say he doesn't have the same level of skill and ability that someone else might have after training karate for 20 years to earn their 6th dan. It's just to say that his karate 6th dan is pure advertising while his real qualifications are in Muay Thai.

 

[skribs]

"Dojo" is also the generic term for a martial arts training place and "sensei" a generic term for martial arts instructor, just like how "karate" is the generic term for martial arts. Not that this is correct, but if I told the average layman I'm taking martial arts and told him something my instructor did in class, he would probably tell the story as what my karate sensei did in the dojo (even though I take TKD).

However, I will agree - martial arts tend to either be dedicated to the country they're from (in this case it would be Thailand) or more adapted to the country they're in. A Thai martial art studio using Japanese terminology sounds a little suspect. An instructor should also never strike fear in the hearts of their students. Respect and discipline, yes, but never fear. I studied psychology in college, and if someone is capable of resorting to abusive methods, even with an apology they are capable of resorting to those methods again. The instructor is not just there to teach the martial art, but to set the example for discipline and self control. If he cannot control himself, he's telling the rest of the class that it's not important to, either.

 

[donnaTKD]

i'm glad that you've taken this place (wolf gym) apart for me

i struggled to understand the ranking system too - but it's listed on the wall in the gym too with a level 10 being a black belt with one red stripe on it --- now to me a black belt with a red stripe on it is either TKD or karate is it not ?????

i'm still going to go cos the gym kit that i ordered for my crash pad hasn't turned up yet.

don't know whether to say anything about the rank system being fraudulent and misleading --- on all the instructors shorts they have both dojo and gym plus his name and on his left sleeve he has his dan rank embroidered on it. you're right about the kit they're wearing cos it looks like full on muay thai to me anyways.

donna

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As I said, the instructor at Wolf Gym seems like he is probably a perfectly legitimate Muay Thai coach. If you like the instruction, there's no reason not to train there. Just don't take the belt system seriously or expect that you will get actual karate training based on his claimed karate rank.

 

[donnaTKD]

unlike the wolf gym the other place that i use only does belts for training purposes and is run more like a boxing gym and the instructor (he doesn't list any qual's or have a website) has produced talent that went to mma series that was on telly and that student won the competition.

at wolf gym they have a trophy cabinet that looks impressive but if you take a look at the students most of them would get trashed in a real scrap i've fought in a cage and know what it takes to come out alive and i'm only using wolf gym for general conditioning and to keep my skills up. i do however believe that the head guy has been there, seen it and done it by the way he's coaching me - his skill levels are up there with my old teacher's.

would i want wolf gym to be responsible for coaching me to competition level muay thai cage fighting - in short no - either that or he'd really have to step it up a few gears - i've trained with a lot of people that would easily put him in the shade but no longer compete or train due to injury.

like i said i'm only using this place until my usual muay thai place gets sorted and then i'll go back there i chose this place cos it's a muay thai centre not a karate centre and it's not advertised as anything other than a muay thai / kickboxing centre anywhere else.

as for the black armband - that's summat that i read about a long time ago and from i can tell it's been universally adopted as the standard for MT fights --- my neice made mine for me so it holds special value but do i need no --- it's like you said it's summat that your significant other would give you as a good luck charm and nothing more......

thankyou for the help guys

donna

 

[skribs]

Belt rank systems vary not only by art, but also by organization. You can look up general dan belts on different arts on wikipedia.

Even within KKW TKD, colored belt systems are vastly different for everyone (normalized at black belt level).

 

[donnaTKD]

yup but that's TKD NOT muay thai --- TKD has always had a belted systtem that stretches accross the board and yup there are vaariations of it but if you're in doubt you can look them pretty quickly muay thai never had a belt system outside of any gym --- just the black (or coloured if you prefer a coloured one) armband.

the guy that was instructing tonight really shouldn't have been there really - waste of time............ ho hum..............

migth try and find another centre for the short term............ not happy tonight ...........was happy last night though ..........

donna

 

[drop bear]

yup but that's TKD NOT muay thai --- TKD has always had a belted systtem that stretches accross the board and yup there are vaariations of it but if you're in doubt you can look them pretty quickly muay thai never had a belt system outside of any gym --- just the black (or coloured if you prefer a coloured one) armband.

the guy that was instructing tonight really shouldn't have been there really - waste of time............ ho hum..............

migth try and find another centre for the short term............ not happy tonight ...........was happy last night though ..........

donna

Where do his fighters train?

 

[donnaTKD]

in the short while that i've been using wolf gym i can't actually say that i've seen anyone that's contest ready. his fighters if there are any that i've not seen must train in wolf gym (inhouse).

since this place has been pulled apart on these boards i've done some digging and i can't find any competition results for anyone from wolf gym so don't know the answer to that one sorry.

donna

 

[Gnarlie]

in the short while that i've been using wolf gym i can't actually say that i've seen anyone that's contest ready. his fighters if there are any that i've not seen must train in wolf gym (inhouse).

since this place has been pulled apart on these boards i've done some digging and i can't find any competition results for anyone from wolf gym so don't know the answer to that one sorry.

donna

He does have fighters though, it lists on his page that he has fighters that have competed at world level, one of them beat Warren Brown (who I was at school with, he went on to become 2xWorld Champ the act in Hollyoaks, The Bill etc.). It seems there are two MT routes through that school, one competition based and one grading based. Perhaps his stable of fighters train behind closed doors / at other times

The lead instructor there claims to have trained under Master Sken, who as I'm sure you know, has a great rep in the North West and beyond.
Gnarlie

 

[donnaTKD]

i've yet to see any of his fight ready people and the wolf gym is open from 10am till 10pm 7 days a week !!!!!

donna