Sanchin

[Tez3]

That's what i thought, there's a wado ryu class near to me, do they teach sanchin?

Wado does Seishan.
http://www.wadokai.co.uk/technical_video_kata/seishan_instructional.php

 

[Gentle Fist]

Sanchin is a form taught at the Nidan level in Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Pretty easy to learn but hard to master

 

[K-man]

Wado does Seishan.
http://www.wadokai.co.uk/technical_video_kata/seishan_instructional.php

Doesn't look much like the Okinawan forms. Possibly this is because Wadu Ryu has its roots in jujutsu with influences from Shotokan and Shito Ryu rather than the link back to Fujien and the Crane systems.

As to the question, "Would Goju Ryu Sanchin help in other styles, particularly TKD?" With further thought ... probably not. Certainly it will help to develop core stability but the fundamentals of body structure of the different martial arts are significantly different.

An analogy might be; I have a regular Ford car. It does all I normally want, but one day I see a Ferrari F1 racing car and its steering wheel is different. It has buttons and levers to do all sorts of things. So I take my perfectly serviceable Ford steering wheel off my Ford car and attach a new Ferrari F1 steering wheel. Now my new Ferrari steering wheel steers the car but the buttons and levers don't do anything. They are not connected to the car. In fact my Ford doesn't have the features of the Ferrari.

With Goju Ryu Sanchin kata, the 'steering wheel' develops core strength. This is the common link to TKD, Shotokan, Judo and many other martial arts. Now we look at the buttons and levers. First button is the positioning of the feet.
Most karate styles will have a form of Sanchin dachi or three point stance. TKD does not have this stance as it has no need for a grappling stance. Even Hapkido's short stance is totally different. Sanchin dachi is the foundation of Sanchin kata. So now we have basically just karate that can use the first button.

Second button, vertical body alignment. COG above midpoint of base, hips above same point, and shoulders, and head.
Third button, sink your weight with knees slightly bent.
Fourth button, straighten spine by tilting hips.
First lever, arms come up into position of Chudan uke. Biceps and triceps tucked against the pecs, fist clenched at or just below shoulder height.
Fifth button, shoulders packed down.
Second lever, fist is drawn back toward the shoulder as far as it will go, then elbow continues back drawing the fist into carriage beside the ribs.
Third lever, arm is extended forward with dynamic tension, fist rotating as arm nears full extension.
Etc, etc, etc.

Each button or lever activated that does not connect to the system is like the Ferrari wheel. The further you get from Goju, the less relevent the buttons and levers.

The positioning of the arm in Goju is the same basic structure throughout the whole Guju system. This is different in the other styles, so changing the arm to suit a different system is unlikely to work without weakening the basic structure.

The breathing in Sanchin is important but could it even be over-rated? The breathing passed down by Miyagi is much softer than the breathing in say Goju Kai. The breathing in the Crane systems is softer again.

I guess this post raises more questions than it gives answers, but Sanchin is an incredibly complex beast. :asian:

 

[punisher73]

Doesn't look much like the Okinawan forms. Possibly this is because Wado Ryu has its roots in jujutsu with influences from Shotokan and Shito Ryu rather than the link back to Fujien and the Crane systems.

The positioning of the arm in Goju is the same basic structure throughout the whole Guju system. This is different in the other styles, so changing the arm to suit a different system is unlikely to work without weakening the basic structure.

I guess this post raises more questions than it gives answers, but Sanchin is an incredibly complex beast. :asian:

The Wado-Ryu version of Seishan shown reminds me very much of the Isshin-Ryu version of the form. It is kind of an upper body Shorin and a lower body Goju.

As to the rest of your post, it is very spot on. But, I would like to point out that Uechi uses different mechanics and breathing as applicable to their style, same with the other versions of the style. So the question really does become, if you changed the physical template to reflect your styles mechanics would it benefit them.

The other aspect is that for some styles the aspect on the dynamic tension is VERY important and leads to what the okinawans refer to as "Chinkuchi". Here is an article from an Isshin-Ryu standpoint on it.
http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/safreed/chinkuchi.shtml

 

[K-man]

The Wado-Ryu version of Seishan shown reminds me very much of the Isshin-Ryu version of the form. It is kind of an upper body Shorin and a lower body Goju.

As to the rest of your post, it is very spot on. But, I would like to point out that Uechi uses different mechanics and breathing as applicable to their style, same with the other versions of the style. So the question really does become, if you changed the physical template to reflect your styles mechanics would it benefit them.

The other aspect is that for some styles the aspect on the dynamic tension is VERY important and leads to what the okinawans refer to as "Chinkuchi". Here is an article from an Isshin-Ryu standpoint on it.
http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/safreed/chinkuchi.shtml

Kanbon Uechi brought his version of Sanchin back from China as did Higaonna. Hence they both developed their version to fit their style. Both were Kung Fu masters so they both understood the application of the Crane system.

Others who have taken the system and modified it to suit themselves have not had the same experience. Therein lies the difficulty in trying to change it to suit a different style. They may have been better off going back to the Crane system and taking from that what suits best.

Your article is interesting in its reference to 'Ki'. That is exactly what I have been training in my aikido to incorporate in my karate, exactly as described in the article. Over the years I have been informed many times that Ki doesn't exist. Funny that.

"Chinkuchi is the essence of isshin-ryu," Advincula says. "The entire system is built around it." This is illustrated in sanchin kata, which is practiced to cultivate and control ki through proper breathing methods. Because he feels proper balance, coupled with maximum energy, is the key to victory, Advincula stresses chinkuchi when teaching self-defense and close-combat fighting. "Disrupt your opponent's ki, and you have won the battle," Advincula states. If you control not only your chinkuchi, but also that of your opponent, you control your destiny."​

So very true. :asian:

 

[punisher73]

K-man, check your messages.

 

[miguksaram]

I have always enjoyed Sanchin kata. We practice it in the Shorei-ryu system at the 4th Kyu level. Our version is closed fist and going back and forth, instead of just straight forward. It is one of my favorite kata to run. I cannot say I have a full understanding of the its entire benefits but definitely something I feel can be utilized in different systems of martial arts.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In Pangainoon/Uechi Ryu, Sanchin is the first kata that is taught. It also forms, as per the videos I posted on page 2, a substantial portion of a Dan test.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Interesting to see four masters lined up together to demonstrate one kata in the different ways.

As was said in the commentary, closing the hands is a recent thing (early 1900s). Even the turning form (Higaonna) has been changed by Yamaguchi to a slightly shorter variation. :asian:

Yeah, that's true, I have first learned Yamaguchi's version of Sanchin before learning the Higaonna version.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

From accounts I have read from early Okinawan karatekas, Sanchin was not a "set in stone" practice. In Uechi, for example, you would just go forward until you got to the end of the dojo and then turned and went back. It was not a prescribed amount of steps forward. Also, students would start with both the right or the left side, and not always on one side. I think the number of steps became more concrete to conserve space and Miyagi changed the turns to stepping backwards because it was harder in his opinion to move back and wanted students to practice that.

I remember reading or maybe hearing that the reason Miyagi changed the pattern for Sanchin from the turns to moving forward and back was because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on your Sensei while he's testing your base and proper tightness. Or maybe Miyagi's students change the kata because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on a Sensei.

 

[rickster]

Ryuei-ryu/Kenko Nakaima, which seems to predate, slightly, Goju/Kanryo Higaonna-Chojun Miyagi, although there is more likihood that they exchanged training. Interesting to note, and that the “Ti” styles also used a soft version called “ Moto-te. Some Shorin styles also called Sanchin; “Kuma di”. The most famous from the Shorin lineage is Gichin Funakoshi. As it had been stated, according to some scholars, Sanchin is morel likely transmitted to Okinawan Masters from Chinese Boxing, some suspect from Fuchou, or White Crane

Sanchin was likely to have come from Chinese Saam Chien/Chan. Scholars believe that even Kanryo himself visited Fouchou and returned with its practice. Saam Chien/Sanchin, is also known as the Hour Glass and/or the Triple Jewel. Although commonly known as “Three Battles” (Interesting to note that “San” can translate as “Three&#8221

While other scholars, believe it had been passed from Buddhist Mandala practices helping condition the body for long hours of meditation.

 

[elder999]

So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.

Sanchin is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three sets of elements at the same time:

• The mind, body and the techniques
• The internal organs, circulation and the nervous system, and
• The three ki, located in: the top of the head, (tento), the diaphragm (hara), and the lower abdomen (tanden)

Kyokushin Sanchin, and sanchin in general, are isometric katas, where each move is performed in a state of complete tension, accompanied by powerful, deep breathing (ibuki) that originates in the lower abdomen (tan den). The practice of Sanchin kata not only leads to the strengthening of the body, but it also aims at the development of inner power (ki) and the coordination of mind and body. It also emphasizes basic footwork, hand techniques as well as basic blocking techniques, and a fair amount of strategy: it not only teaches overall breath control, but is a tool of learning in no dori, to move in while an attacker is inhaling, or at the moment in between inhalation and exhalation. It, along with the kata tensho-what many consider the sister to sanchin-teaches the use of the rotation of the hand and wrist, leading and redirecting an opponent, and adding one’s power to their own.

One can find several versions of this kata performed, with and without the tension-including more than one Chinese form called “Three Battles,” related to White Crane, Here’s a really cool video I found of Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu, Shin Gushi of Uechi ryu/pangainoon, and two Chinese masters I’m completely unfamiliar with., Chen Jian Feng and a Master Pan, each demonstrating their respective version:

And here’s Shin Gushi, performing Uechi ryu’s sanchin kata, again:

Here’s the kyokushin version I learned as a kid-a bit more apparent tension than most other forms, but not really any tenser:

And Morio Hagionna, of Goju ryu, again:

Here’s Angi Uezi performing Isshin ryu’s sanchin kata, with tension:

but I’ve also seen Isshin ryu people do it without tension.

And here’s Toyama Seiko, another Uechi ryu master, performing another kata, at the age of 74:

I posted the last video to demonstrate what several of these gentlemen show, though, the true benefit of sanchin kata: vigor and strength into old age. Strength and vitality throughout one’s life are intimately tied to breathing and breath control, and this practice-done properly as part of an overall training program-contributes to longevity and vitality. I’m living proof of that-I’m not supposed to be breathing at all, at this age, or even to have reached this age, never mind still be breathing pretty darned well. I happen to know that Shin Gushi, who was about 68 when his video was done, smokes like a chimney. I also learned the Uechi version from my friend, Andre Tippett, about 25 years ago, and I practice both forms. I believe the open hands are the original martial application, and also allow for better ki development and flow, and think that the form should also be practiced without tension on occasion-but that’s just me, and what do I know?

 

[rickster]

Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?

 

[seasoned]

Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?

To an extent pertaining to principles, yes.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?

Maybe, even further back to Ethiopia, Egypt and throughout Western Asia had put emphasis on breathing exercises.

 

[punisher73]

I remember reading or maybe hearing that the reason Miyagi changed the pattern for Sanchin from the turns to moving forward and back was because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on your Sensei while he's testing your base and proper tightness. Or maybe Miyagi's students change the kata because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on a Sensei.

Probably urban legend, the story that I had read was that there were no katas that had stepping back in them, so Miyagi wanted to add that since it is more difficult to move back in proper stance.

As for the turning, from stories I have read from various lineages in Okinawa that practice the kata. There were no set amounts of stepping before turning, for example three steps foward turn etc. You just stepped forward from one side of the dojo until the other and then turned around and then went back to the other side, however many times your instructor wanted you too. The reason I point that out is that it was a very common way to practice it, for a very long time. So I don't think that the Miyagi version took out the turns for that reason alone. I think it was more to practice stepping back.

 

[punisher73]

So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.

Sanchin is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three sets of elements at the same time:

• The mind, body and the techniques
• The internal organs, circulation and the nervous system, and
• The three ki, located in: the top of the head, (tento), the diaphragm (hara), and the lower abdomen (tanden)

Kyokushin Sanchin, and sanchin in general, are isometric katas, where each move is performed in a state of complete tension, accompanied by powerful, deep breathing (ibuki) that originates in the lower abdomen (tan den). The practice of Sanchin kata not only leads to the strengthening of the body, but it also aims at the development of inner power (ki) and the coordination of mind and body. It also emphasizes basic footwork, hand techniques as well as basic blocking techniques, and a fair amount of strategy: it not only teaches overall breath control, but is a tool of learning in no dori, to move in while an attacker is inhaling, or at the moment in between inhalation and exhalation. It, along with the kata tensho-what many consider the sister to sanchin-teaches the use of the rotation of the hand and wrist, leading and redirecting an opponent, and adding one’s power to their own.

One can find several versions of this kata performed, with and without the tension-including more than one Chinese form called “Three Battles,” related to White Crane, Here’s a really cool video I found of Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu, Shin Gushi of Uechi ryu/pangainoon, and two Chinese masters I’m completely unfamiliar with., Chen Jian Feng and a Master Pan, each demonstrating their respective version:

And here’s Shin Gushi, performing Uechi ryu’s sanchin kata, again:

Here’s the kyokushin version I learned as a kid-a bit more apparent tension than most other forms, but not really any tenser:

And Morio Hagionna, of Goju ryu, again:

Here’s Angi Uezi performing Isshin ryu’s sanchin kata, with tension:
but I’ve also seen Isshin ryu people do it without tension.

And here’s Toyama Seiko, another Uechi ryu master, performing another kata, at the age of 74:



I posted the last video to demonstrate what several of these gentlemen show, though, the true benefit of sanchin kata: vigor and strength into old age. Strength and vitality throughout one’s life are intimately tied to breathing and breath control, and this practice-done properly as part of an overall training program-contributes to longevity and vitality. I’m living proof of that-I’m not supposed to be breathing at all, at this age, or even to have reached this age, never mind still be breathing pretty darned well. I happen to know that Shin Gushi, who was about 68 when his video was done, smokes like a chimney. I also learned the Uechi version from my friend, Andre Tippett, about 25 years ago, and I practice both forms. I believe the open hands are the original martial application, and also allow for better ki development and flow, and think that the form should also be practiced without tension on occasion-but that’s just me, and what do I know?

Great post. Only one thing to nitpick. Sanchin is a dynamic tension exercise and not isometric. Isometric is pitting the muscle against an immovable object (like pushing against a wall) and there is no range of motion at all. Dynamic tension is the flexing and pitting the muscles against each other through a range of motion.

What's interesting, is that even on Okinawa there was disagreement as to the benefits of Sanchin. It was very common for the Shorin based styles to say that Sanchin led to health problems (hemmoroids for one, high blood pressure, etc.) and an early death.

The open vs. closed hand that Kanryo Higaonna did had to do with the lethality of the kata. Uechi-Ryu still uses the spearhand strike (and other configurations) to "up the lethality" of what they do. Higaonna supposedly changed it to closed hands and the breathing pattern to emphasize the health aspects more, and the closed hands because most of the okinawans he taught used the closed fist when fighting. I have also hear that the closed fist keeps in the internal energy, and on the other side that closing the fist cuts off the internal energy, so both sides are in disagreement on that one as well. I have heard some reports that it was Miyagi that closed the hands, but in interview I have read from Juhatsu Sensei of To'on Ryu (another close student of Higaonna) he stated that Higaonna always taugh the kata with closed hands, so I think that it is more likely that Miyagi did not make that change.

 

[elder999]

As for the turning, from stories I have read from various lineages in Okinawa that practice the kata. There were no set amounts of stepping before turning, for example three steps foward turn etc. You just stepped forward from one side of the dojo until the other and then turned around and then went back to the other side, however many times your instructor wanted you too. The reason I point that out is that it was a very common way to practice it, for a very long time. So I don't think that the Miyagi version took out the turns for that reason alone. I think it was more to practice stepping back.

Well, I've got a pet question that I use to remind my students all the time, though it means something different for karate kata, it's pretty relevant to this conversation:

Where is your opponent?

And consider the martial application of the turn in terms of seasoned's post on spinal flex and grounding. :wink:

 

[punisher73]

Well, I've got a pet question that I use to remind my students all the time, though it means something different for karate kata, it's pretty relevant to this conversation:

Where is your opponent?

And consider the martial application of the turn in terms of seasoned's post on spinal flex and grounding. :wink:

I agree. I think the turn is done in a specific way to learn a specific lesson, it just wasn't a set amount of steps when training Sanchin as to when you do the turn other than running out of space. I just meant that the turn wasn't taken out soley because it was rude to turn your back to your instructor. In Goju-Ryu, there are other katas that practice that type of turning, so you aren't losing the lesson by taking it out of Sanchin. But, Sanchin is the only one that comes to mind that has you stepping back like that, and I think that is more reasonable to assume for the change.

 

[K-man]

In Goju-Ryu, there are other katas that practice that type of turning, so you aren't losing the lesson by taking it out of Sanchin. But, Sanchin is the only one that comes to mind that has you stepping back like that, and I think that is more reasonable to assume for the change.

Tensho perhaps?