Rokas Responds on Wing Chun Challenge...

Status
Not open for further replies.

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,853
Reaction score
2,855
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The "Martial Arts Journey" guy, Rokas put out a challenge to practitioners of martial arts he deemed "ineffective" asking that they send him videos to show that their arts actually can work against live, resisting opponents. He included WC in the list of dubious arts and apparently got a big reaction from the WC community. Check the link below for YouTube video in response. Watch it and post your thoughts!


 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,853
Reaction score
2,855
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The "Martial Arts Journey" guy, Rokas put out a challenge to practitioners of martial arts he deemed "ineffective" asking that they send him videos to show that their arts actually can work against live, resisting opponents. He included WC in the list of dubious arts and apparently got a big reaction from the WC community. Check the link below for YouTube video in response. Watch it and post your thoughts!



...BTW bonus points if you can find my remarks in the YouTube comments for this video (hint: I'm VTSifu Steve).
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
1,036
As I've always maintained..wing chun can be useful once you understand fighting..ie distance, timing and angles.

If you can find a school that trains with aliveness(real resistance rather than cooperative excersize/forms/chi sau only) you might just learn to fight.
 

Shatteredzen

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 5, 2021
Messages
378
Reaction score
106
I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.

I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.

I would still like to see a much more positive community review of what's out there, because even when you do it honestly like he has here, it encourages that toxic style versus style stuff. If we can get the overall community within martial arts to agree on the need for these kinds of reforms, I think we will see a big re-discovery/renaissance in martial arts as a whole. Something similar happened with HEMA and the western martial arts and its led to not only a better historical picture of what exists and has existed but a community much more open to looking for what works. HEMA and the Western martial arts have issues like anything, but I can watch "The King" on netflix and see their fight choreography is loads better than braveheart or anything else was years ago, because now there is real expertise out there in some of those forgotten western disciplines and the cinematic depiction much more closely resembles some of those old fight books.

Bujinkan is facing a sea change now that Antony Cumins is translating the actual Ninja scrolls and clarifying the reality of "ninja" martial arts. It's maybe bad for Bujinkan but its better for everyone who wants historical and maybe more functional "Ninpo". I would like to see more of this kind of stuff with Aikido and maybe more emphasis on checking Daito Ryu/ Judo and pre WW2 Aikido as well as integrating Aikido into a more mixed or practical style with these methods.

Here's the video I was talking about, its not perfect but its a guy here in the states trying to develop/train/explore using the Aikido fundamentals in a broader and more practical context.


 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
I hate how clickbaity he makes some of the videos, like jesus, the title box is where you put the title not in the thumbnail.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Manchester UK
I hate how clickbaity he makes some of the videos, like jesus, the title box is where you put the title not in the thumbnail.
you tube is click bait, it the nature of monetised videos, that you receive income from clicks,

that's why you need to be careful using them as a referance source as being fair and or honest may not pay as well
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,820
Reaction score
5,695
I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.

I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.

I would still like to see a much more positive community review of what's out there, because even when you do it honestly like he has here, it encourages that toxic style versus style stuff. If we can get the overall community within martial arts to agree on the need for these kinds of reforms, I think we will see a big re-discovery/renaissance in martial arts as a whole. Something similar happened with HEMA and the western martial arts and its led to not only a better historical picture of what exists and has existed but a community much more open to looking for what works. HEMA and the Western martial arts have issues like anything, but I can watch "The King" on netflix and see their fight choreography is loads better than braveheart or anything else was years ago, because now there is real expertise out there in some of those forgotten western disciplines and the cinematic depiction much more closely resembles some of those old fight books.

Bujinkan is facing a sea change now that Antony Cumins is translating the actual Ninja scrolls and clarifying the reality of "ninja" martial arts. It's maybe bad for Bujinkan but its better for everyone who wants historical and maybe more functional "Ninpo". I would like to see more of this kind of stuff with Aikido and maybe more emphasis on checking Daito Ryu/ Judo and pre WW2 Aikido as well as integrating Aikido into a more mixed or practical style with these methods.

Here's the video I was talking about, its not perfect but its a guy here in the states trying to develop/train/explore using the Aikido fundamentals in a broader and more practical context.



I have a wing chun forum of Facebook and there are two camps. Some who are interested in practicality and some who pretend to be.

So it is chi sau logic and ip man stories vs live testing.
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
1,036
I guess my first thought is, who is this Rokas fellow, and why should anyone care what he thinks?
He's a young lad that had the courage to put his black belt level aikido training through rigorous pressure testing without one of the usual two obvious agendas you normally see(trying to prove it works or that it's garbage)

The fact that it didn't work at all does tend to upset some people but that's not really his fault.
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,288
Reaction score
1,036
I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.

I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.

I would still like to see a much more positive community review of what's out there, because even when you do it honestly like he has here, it encourages that toxic style versus style stuff. If we can get the overall community within martial arts to agree on the need for these kinds of reforms, I think we will see a big re-discovery/renaissance in martial arts as a whole. Something similar happened with HEMA and the western martial arts and its led to not only a better historical picture of what exists and has existed but a community much more open to looking for what works. HEMA and the Western martial arts have issues like anything, but I can watch "The King" on netflix and see their fight choreography is loads better than braveheart or anything else was years ago, because now there is real expertise out there in some of those forgotten western disciplines and the cinematic depiction much more closely resembles some of those old fight books.

Bujinkan is facing a sea change now that Antony Cumins is translating the actual Ninja scrolls and clarifying the reality of "ninja" martial arts. It's maybe bad for Bujinkan but its better for everyone who wants historical and maybe more functional "Ninpo". I would like to see more of this kind of stuff with Aikido and maybe more emphasis on checking Daito Ryu/ Judo and pre WW2 Aikido as well as integrating Aikido into a more mixed or practical style with these methods.

Here's the video I was talking about, its not perfect but its a guy here in the states trying to develop/train/explore using the Aikido fundamentals in a broader and more practical context.


I spent ten years in wing chun, and was fortunate enough to have a sifu that pressure tested. The vast majority do not.

Even with this background Thai boxing training forced me to massively adapt much of it and discard entirely even more to be able to compete with Thai boxers when I changed schools(before MMA was a thing)
 

Graywalker

Brown Belt
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
403
Reaction score
117
The guy? Who are you talking about? Rokas ...or someone else? What is your point?
Not sure I understand your question, did you forget your original post.

My point is, why act as if you have experience with every style...oh and so there is no confusion.. I am using the word "you" in general, not you specifically.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,121
Reaction score
3,128
Location
New York
I watched the video wednesday so it's entirely possible I forgot something...but where did he claim to have experience with every style? I thought he was pretty upfront that he didn't have experience with kung fu, and his biases got challenged by the responses.
 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,853
Reaction score
2,855
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Not sure I understand your question, did you forget your original post.
My point is, why act as if you have experience with every style...oh and so there is no confusion.. I am using the word "you" in general, not you specifically.

Yes, there does seem to be some confusion on your part, and nothing to do with your use of the second person ("you") in the general sense. Please read post #16 above by MTW for clarification. He points out that Rokas made no claim to have knowledge of every style.

BTW I think you may have him (Rokas) confused with "that other guy" i.e. some other YouTube commentator. ....Maybe that bearded idiot who trashes all TMA and started his own style of MMA-TKD (which looks pretty pathetic). Honestly, I don't remember his name ...and don't really care to! :cool:
 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
They have been quietly working pretty hard at it.

The anecdotes about stopping bank robbers is running dry in the modern world. :p

to be fair, if you train and actually try to pull off the moves taught to you and are taught how to do them, you learn and get experience in doing them. Im sure i have ranted about why would you teach someone kata, explain its to practise fighting then moan when someone tries to do it in sparring? or you not teach them how to do what you teach in Kata before teaching it, or as you taught it. Like doesnt karate do bunkai of the form/s for the form/s they learnt that day? So in other words, you learn the practical application of Kata in karate as you learn the kata, backed by basics practise.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top