Ridgehands (and other strikes in that direction)

[skribs]

This is an extension of the conversation regarding ridgehands in this thread. I thought this particular post deserved it's own thread instead of a continuation there. To summarize, we were discussing ridge-hand techniques, and how I didn't think they were effective. @drop bear said he would use an inverted backfist for that scenario. I hypothesized that it was a weak punch. I also said I would try it out.

My testing method was to use the StrikeMeter I got for Christmas last year. For the purpose of this test, I was standing to BOB's left, and every strike was aimed at the face level. The numbers the system provides are meaningless by themselves, and only matter when compared to each other. Strikes at different levels would result in different values, which is why all strikes were aimed at the head.

I was not wearing gloves, which did impact my willingness to use a few of the strikes (notably the ridgehand). I tested techniques that are done from the side, but through the centerline of the target. I tested each strike 5 times. I am posting the average of the middle three tests (drop the lowest and highest score, and average out the remaining scores).

Left Twist Kick 151
Left Backfist 226
Right Inside Chop 267
Right Ridgehand 276
Right Inside Hammerfist 278
Right Long Hook 284
Left Spin Hook Kick 291
Right Short Hook 297
Left Outside Crescent Kick 303
Left Back Elbow 322
Right Mid Hook 372
Left Chop 378
Right Inverted Backfist 385
Left Hammerfist 413
Right Cross Elbow 430
Right Roundhouse Kick 514
Right Inside Crescent Kick 526

I should note that the twist kick was at the peak of my flexibility for that kick, and I've trained it very little on the left leg. I'm actually surprised the ridgehand came in stronger than the inside chop, although I'm not surprised that it was one of the weaker strikes. I intended to (and forgot to) test the reverse hammerfist version of the ridgehand, as well as the forearm versions. Next weekend I'll compare ridgehand, reverse hammerfist, and inside forearm strike.

The other thing that surprised me is how strong the inverted backfist that @drop bear recommended. This was essentially my first time using it, and it was the 3rd strongest of the 12 different hand strikes I tested. I expected it to be below the left backfist.

Similarly, I'm surprised the crescent kick came in stronger than the roundhouse. Although I felt off with the roundhouse kicks today (same with spin hook kick).

I'm also impressed by how fists did compared to knife-hand strikes. The inside hammer fist was 4% stronger, and the left-hand hammerfist was 9% stronger, and it was pretty consistently stronger. It also felt so much better on my hand when striking. That's not to say the chops are bad - I think they're more useful for sliding into spaces the fist might not fit. But the fist techniques definitely have an edge in terms of how I can deliver power with them.

 

[Flying Crane]

What conclusions do you feel you can draw from this data?

In my opinion those numbers mean something on the theoretical level, but don’t really mean much for real. It only matters if you can land the strike solidly (enough) on an appropriate target. If not, then the biggest numbers possible on a non-reacting target are meaningless. The bottom line is, if you can hit hard enough to hurt the bad guy, then It can be a useful technique. It does not need to be the STRONGEST technique. It only needs to be strong enough to do useful damage in order to justify keeping it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You identified one problem yourself. You're holding back on some strikes, which means the results are skewed towards the strikes you favor.

 

[skribs]

What conclusions do you feel you can draw from this data?

In my opinion those numbers mean something on the theoretical level, but don’t really mean much for real. It only matters if you can land the strike solidly (enough) on an appropriate target. If not, then the biggest numbers possible on a non-reacting target are meaningless. The bottom line is, if you can hit hard enough to hurt the bad guy, then It can be a useful technique. It does not need to be the STRONGEST technique. It only needs to be strong enough to do useful damage in order to justify keeping it.

It means if you think you can land both strikes, one carries more impact than the other.

There's obviously a lot more that goes into it. Whether or not you think you can land it, and simply what your strategy is.

You identified one problem yourself. You're holding back on some strikes, which means the results are skewed towards the strikes you favor.

Not necessarily. I was holding back on strikes that were hurting my hand to execute. The ridgehand was the biggest offender.

The strike I favored least was the inverted backfist, because I thought it would be useless, and it ended up being one of the strongest.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What conclusions do you feel you can draw from this data?

In my opinion those numbers mean something on the theoretical level, but don’t really mean much for real. It only matters if you can land the strike solidly (enough) on an appropriate target. If not, then the biggest numbers possible on a non-reacting target are meaningless. The bottom line is, if you can hit hard enough to hurt the bad guy, then It can be a useful technique. It does not need to be the STRONGEST technique. It only needs to be strong enough to do useful damage in order to justify keeping it.

It does help you to know if you're strike is useful or not (or at least skribs know if his strike is useful or not). If he is in a situation where he can throw either a right crescent kick or a left twist kick, he knows his crescent kick is much stronger than his twist kick. It can also give him an idea of what strikes he wants to work on.

To be useful as a whole/for everyone, we would need additional people (preferably not all training in the same place/same style) to do the same experiment. for instance, if I did it, I can guarantee my crescent kick would not be that high comparatively to my other strikes.

 

[Buka]

What is an inverted back fist, please?

 

[isshinryuronin]

I was holding back on strikes that were hurting my hand to execute. The ridgehand was the biggest offender.[/QUOTE

No problem. That just means that ridge hands are better used for more fragile targets, some of which would not be as accessible to an inverted (or regular) back fist. There's a time and place for everything, but I don't like that in the inverted back fist (pinkie finger on top, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing) the elbow is up and seems to be vulnerable to the opponent controlling it. I like to look for opportunities to control the opponent's elbow myself.

That strike meter was a terrific gift! I'm surprised the inverted back fist registered so strongly. I see that move as a "special application" move, suited for specific situations, not as part of one's normal arsenal.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What is an inverted back fist, please?

See my posting above - somehow it got included in the "quote" section??? The only place I've seen it is in Parker's Kenpo where it's thrown in a looping motion.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What is an inverted back fist, please?

Think a ridge hand, but with the back of the fist rather than the ridge of the hand. If that makes as little sense as I think it does, check this video.

 

[Flying Crane]

See my posting above - somehow it got included in the "quote" section??? The only place I've seen it is in Parker's Kenpo where it's thrown in a looping motion.

We had it in Tracy kenpo as well. It also shows up in White Crane, but I would say that the delivery is different, at least from my experience with the kenpo I was taught.

I think it is actually a good example of how just about anything can be turned into a solid strike if you understand how to properly get full-body power. Even things that don’t automatically seem like a “proper” technique.

 

[skribs]

What is an inverted back fist, please?

Think of it like a hook punch, but with the thumb down.

 

[_Simon_]

That was a fascinating experiment @skribs , especially for those of us who don't have access to such a cool machine. Even though very much relative data, still found it interesting. Thanks for posting!

Ps. I'd have sooo much fun with that thing, would test all sorts of techniques on it!

 

[CB Jones]

Think of it like a hook punch, but with the thumb down.

What is the purpose of having the thumb down?

 

[skribs]

What is the purpose of having the thumb down?

To make it a backfist. A backfist with the thumb up isn't even possible in that direction.

 

[CB Jones]

To make it a backfist. A backfist with the thumb up isn't even possible in that direction.

OK....to clarify....why would you want it to be a back fist then? Why not just punch as you would normally like a hook? Or a straight punch? What is the purpose of it, is what I meant?

 

[Headhunter]

Regarding the regarding the inverted backfist. As has been said it is used in kenpo and I've had a quick jog through where I've seen it. could be more but all I can think of is the self defence technique striking serpents head where the attacker bear hugs you from the front arms free. The first move is to step back and use your right hand to use the inverted backfist to hit them in the back of the head. Might be more but that's all I can think of right now. Going to do my home session soon of running through all the techniques I'll look out for it and update if I find it

 

[skribs]

OK....to clarify....why would you want it to be a back fist then? Why not just punch as you would normally like a hook? Or a straight punch? What is the purpose of it, is what I meant?

What is the purpose of most techniques? Most techniques are almost superfluous with something else.

Personally, I found this hurt my hand less and recorded higher numbers than a hook punch. So there's something at the very least.

 

[skribs]

To be useful as a whole/for everyone, we would need additional people (preferably not all training in the same place/same style) to do the same experiment. for instance, if I did it, I can guarantee my crescent kick would not be that high comparatively to my other strikes.

I think there's a caveat with head kicks that if it's not something you've trained to do, it's not an accurate representation of how good they are. If you don't have the flexibility then you end up trading flexibility for power (like happened with the twist kick in my experiment).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think there's a caveat with head kicks that if it's not something you've trained to do, it's not an accurate representation of how good they are. If you don't have the flexibility then you end up trading flexibility for power (like happened with the twist kick in my experiment).

I treated crescents as midlevel kicks, which I've seen other people do effectively. I just chose it because it's definitively onr of my worst kicks.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

OK....to clarify....why would you want it to be a back fist then? Why not just punch as you would normally like a hook? Or a straight punch? What is the purpose of it, is what I meant?

So first, you could say that of almost any punch, it's just another option.

But as an answer: it's much more similar to a ridgehand than a straight punch or a hook (check the video I linked above). Its advantage over a ridgehand is you have a bit more leeway in regards to where you're targeting/you aren't planning to be too precise. But it's a different motion that your arm is doing than either a hook or a straight, which means in certain situations it might land where one of the other two punches would not (and vice versa).