Resistant uke, a good thing?

[Tsuki-Yomi]

Hypothetically speaking, should the uke constantly resist every technique you try to place him in? Example....Your shihan has instructed you and a fellow classmate to click up over the weekend and work on three techniques you have been working on for over two weeks in class. In a sense both of you are familiar with these techniques, so you both know what the other is about to do at anytime during the technique. Basicly what I am saying is you both know when and how to resist and the outcome always turns into *forcing*the technique. Is it benefiting the two practitioners to be training this way? Why or why not?

 

[bluekey88]

I'd say the answer is "yes." Once you can execute a technique in a basic fashion, then there should be some reistance to test it. What happens is the resistance gives light to flaws in the application of the technique.

Now, if all you do is end up forcing thigns without critically thinking about the WHY of what is happening, then such practice is pointless. Step back and analyse what is going on...once you know where things are going south, you can adjust...then more resistance can be added and more adjustments and refinements...and so on...

the important piece is not jsut reistance, but critical assessment and refinement.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Steve]

This is a tricky subject. We talk a lot about being a good partner. That means resisting in a realistic manner. When drilling a technique, it's important to react as an opponent actually will react, with a sound counter.

At my old school, I'd see guys resist standing joint locks with all sorts of contortions, or by setting their bodies in anticipation of the lock. This is not being a good partner. It happens at my current school as well. It's funny when it happens during demonstration, as my instructor will say, "Well, you could do that, but that just puts you in more danger here. Most people will protect their arm and...."

Edit to add: Of course, this also means avoiding flopping around in an unrealistic manner, as well.

In BJJ, we'll often drill lockflows, much as many arts do. As we do these, we work common locks and common counters, with some resistance. As far as I'm concerned, you'll know you're being a good partner when you resist in a way that prepares your drilling partner to recognize both the opening and the counters during sparring.

 

[Brother John]

Is it appropriate for an Uke to resist???
Yes
and
No

Not when a student is still in the skill aquisition phase of learning a technique or movement. During this phase he's working to get things 'right'.

Later, once they've got the basic patterns of the skill down pat, THEN....by all means, RESIST!!! But even then, I think that the Uke should strive to resist just beyond the bounds of tori's skill level. You should force them to innovate and work toward regaining control, not simply shutting them DOWN everytime just because you're a 2nd Dan or something and they're still fairly green.....

Just my thoughts.

Your Brother
John

 

[jks9199]

This is a tricky subject. We talk a lot about being a good partner. That means resisting in a realistic manner. When drilling a technique, it's important to react as an opponent actually will react, with a sound counter.

At my old school, I'd see guys resist standing joint locks with all sorts of contortions, or by setting their bodies in anticipation of the lock. This is not being a good partner. It happens at my current school as well. It's funny when it happens during demonstration, as my instructor will say, "Well, you could do that, but that just puts you in more danger here. Most people will protect their arm and...."

Edit to add: Of course, this also means avoiding flopping around in an unrealistic manner, as well.

In BJJ, we'll often drill lockflows, much as many arts do. As we do these, we work common locks and common counters, with some resistance. As far as I'm concerned, you'll know you're being a good partner when you resist in a way that prepares your drilling partner to recognize both the opening and the counters during sparring.

This is a good summary of being a useful training partner.

As you learn the skill, kata, or technique -- your partner should let you do it. Maybe if you're working with an notably more advanced partner, they'll give you a little bit of resistance to force you to do the technique properly, and not cheat into something close but not quite it.

As you advance in your understanding of the skill, your partner should be increasingly resistant. But this must be REALISTIC resistance; if I know you're going to kick me in the stomach at the end of the technique, I can stop the kick every time. That's not realistic, nor it is realistic to jump out of the way before they start moving.

At the most advanced level, your partner should be fully resistant, forcing you to adapt and improvise while still staying within the bounds of the technique, like Brother John said.

 

[stephen]

I think it can be helpful to think of it as 'non-compliance' instead of 'resistance'.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I think it can be helpful to think of it as 'non-compliance' instead of 'resistance'.

Agreed. In any event, the question, to me, is this: Is uke's resistance or non-compliance natural, as you might encounter in a defense situation, or is it an anticipation of the technique itself? ie Is uke thwarting the technique because s/he knows what's coming?

Both kinds of resistance have value. The first is good for learning a technique; the second is good for advancing that technique on someone who knows your art.

 

[Kreth]

Agreed. In any event, the question, to me, is this: Is uke's resistance or non-compliance natural, as you might encounter in a defense situation, or is it an anticipation of the technique itself? ie Is uke thwarting the technique because s/he knows what's coming?

Both can be helpful, in a way. The first is useful in learning to apply a technique proficiently. One of my pet peeves is an uke who falls down at the first hint of pain. A little resistance forces you to apply the technique effectively.
The second I think is useful later in training. If you're trying to apply one technique and your uke is anticipating or just flat out determined not to let you have it, flow into what he's giving you.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. Techniques should never be forced, if you find yourself doing this have your partner slow down when he is resisting you until you discover the flaw in your technique.

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree with the "yes and no" answer(s) to this question (an excellent one by the way). This is applicable to all the arts represented in this forum.
When I was being a Uke for a Kenpoist I couldn't help thinking that there was a definite counter to this or that technique. Yet, realizing that the student was still learning the intricacies of the techniques did not resist because she needed to ensure her muscles were used to the movements necessary to perform them.
I had always wanted to spar with them but never gotten the opportunity. I also sensed a feeling of reluctance on their part to the idea as I was a JKD-ist and thus wouldn't act as another Kenpoist when enacted upon.

:idunno: well, isn't that the whole idea?

 

[redantstyle]

This is a tricky subject. We talk a lot about being a good partner. That means resisting in a realistic manner. When drilling a technique, it's important to react as an opponent actually will react, with a sound counter.

couldn't agree more with your distinction. every technique has a counter, which is really just a revelation of it's weak points. whether they be your own personal flaws, or just the nature of the movement. you develop alot more skill (read adaptive flow) when your techniques are countered, as opposed to merely being defused, or 'monkeyed with'.

i have however observed that in many cases, given the option to counter, the uke will forego an actual attack, and instead mimes the primary so that they can focus on their 'counter attack'. this can degenerate into a counterproductive situation.

countering is all well and good provided there is an actual commitment on the initial attack.


regards.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am in agreement that non cooperative training is a good thing once the initial technique is known. (I do subscribe to resistance being good) However the non cooperative partner has to also understand that strikes, etc. have effect and honor them. If you strike some one in the neck and then move into a joint lock and they act as if they are immune then well..... they are not moving with reality. Then next time you may have to up the contact level and you can see where it will all go. If both partners are working together then some non cooperative resistance is good. Otherwise you might as well have at it and see where things end up with a solid sparring session.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Both can be helpful, in a way. The first is useful in learning to apply a technique proficiently. One of my pet peeves is an uke who falls down at the first hint of pain. A little resistance forces you to apply the technique effectively.
The second I think is useful later in training. If you're trying to apply one technique and your uke is anticipating or just flat out determined not to let you have it, flow into what he's giving you.

You and I are both in agreement here.

 

[SKB]

The thing I find hard is getting people to understand the diffrence between not "giving it" to their training partner and "knowing" what the other person is going to do so they counter.

I have to remind people to 'act' as if they do not know what is coming.

 

[Jimi]

A lot of these posts are insightful. I feel that for learning a technique, it is ok for the UKE to initially allow the technique to be done without much resistance for the sake of learning the skill. If the partners trust each other, then they can feel free to take it up a notch. The more resistant the UKE the more realistic the tech can be, but this will likely lead to an increased chance of injury. I do not agree with an UKE fully resisting the tech when they know what is about to be attempted then injure their partner, and I also feel that an UKE has given himself to & trusts a partner and should not be slammed or cranked near full force without an understanding between them. Just my opinion. I am sure we can be safe while taking the tech's to a more solid level of resistance. PEACE