Redemption – can martial training help?

[exile]

Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

You got it in a nutshell. If you want `redemption' for some crime you committed, you start with the person or people you injured. If eventually they come to forgive you---and there's no reason to expect that they will, if you really damaged them---then you can start trying to repair the damage you did to the larger society. I don't see how learning to use an armbar across someone's throat to force them to the ground is connected to healing the injuries you inflicted.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Just got another bad one for my above post LOL!

Probably the same coward that zinged me a few days ago for expressing my opinion. But anyway, back on topic.

 

[The Master]

You got it in a nutshell. If you want `redemption' for some crime you committed, you start with the person or people you injured. If eventually they come to forgive you---and there's no reason to expect that they will, if you really damaged them---then you can start trying to repair the damage you did to the larger society. I don't see how learning to use an armbar across someone's throat to force them to the ground is connected to healing the injuries you inflicted.

Exactly

Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.

Become a moderator.

Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

Because aged Masters in some Asian arts eventually grew tired of blood and the smell of death, and reached beyond for something deeper, leading eventually to some rather interesting ideas.

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

I read his books, interesting concepts, more like standard New Age Paganism combined with carney showmanship than evil, demon spawn blood junk.

I agree with all previous posts about criminals and the such. But, I would say, that IF the individual in question TRULY seeks redemption, The spiritual aspects of the martial arts can help.

Provided one trains in a spiritual art. Plenty of arts without any mystical aspects.

Probably the same coward that zinged me a few days ago for expressing my opinion. But anyway, back on topic.

Um, they suck?

 

[Hand Sword]

Provided one trains in a spiritual art. Plenty of arts without any mystical aspects.

Sadly, True.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Because aged Masters in some Asian arts eventually grew tired of blood and the smell of death, and reached beyond for something deeper, leading eventually to some rather interesting ideas.

Still doesn't exactly qualify as redemption though. And considering that martial arts spirituality has its roots in Taoism and Zen Buddhism, the concept is a tad odd. Martial arts will not repair damage done, and studying it does not mean actions would be forgiven.
And if instead the OP was hinting at in some way coming back into harmony with the universe, martial arts is still not the best way to go.
"Becoming one with nature" would just involve following your natural impulses.
The only possible category I see this following into is a psychological one, where the person in question feels that martial arts training can in some way calm them or help them feel more at peace.
But thats still only satisfying an individuals psychological needs, it doesn't qualify as redeeming them to society, or any other individuals involved.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Sadly, True.

Thats relative really to what you would consider to be spiritual. If you take a Zen approach to it, emphasis of spirituality would in fact move away from the concept of spirituality, whereas focusing on training itself would be considered more in touch with it.

 

[Hand Sword]

True, but, you can only work on yourself, what has been done, was done. How others see you, they see you. But, now what? Give up and be what they think? Or, Live one day at a time, trying to improve yourself, and maybe gain forgiveness. Peopple CAN come back from it, may take a long time, but, it can happen. With Zen, focussing on improving themselves from the inside-out, They can begin that process.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

True, but, you can only work on yourself, what has been done, was done. How others see you, they see you. But, now what? Give up and be what they think? Or, Live one day at a time, trying to improve yourself, and maybe gain forgiveness. Peopple CAN come back from it, may take a long time, but, it can happen. With Zen, focussing on improving themselves from the inside-out, They can begin that process.

Thats still basing who you are on what other view you as though. Its just instead of being how they think you are, its being how you'd like them to think of you.
Both approaches still rely too much on outside opinion. Instead they should be focusing only on how they feel , and follow where that leads them. A desire to improve should be based only on your own feelings, not someone elses.

 

[Hand Sword]

That's what I said or eluded too already.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

That's what I said or eluded too already.

That can't be considered redemption then. Redemption would imply that there has been a transgression that needs to be forgiven, and that has to come from an external source.
Whereas what we're both bouncing around is the concept of enlightenment, which come internally. Whole different concept though.

 

[Hand Sword]

True, but you have to become more so first, and live that way to get that external source, or have any chance of that source, to look at you that way. Based on the need to change who you are inside, The M.A.'s can help. Criminals are people, The M.A.'s benefit people, if they are willing to acept those benefits.

All I'm saying is Redemption is a process by all involved. However, it first starts with the offending individual. They first have to change their behaviors, which stems from their thinking. With that the Martial Arts, strongly based in the spiritual side, can be of assistance. Remember, people study the arts for different reasons. Bettering themselves is one of them.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

True, but you have to become more so first, and live that way to get that external source, or have any chance of that source, to look at you that way. Based on the need to change who you are inside, The M.A.'s can help. Criminals are people, The M.A.'s benefit people, if they are willing to acept those benefits.

All I'm saying is Redemption is a process by all involved. However, it first starts with the offending individual. They first have to change their behaviors, which stems from their thinking. With that the Martial Arts, strongly based in the spiritual side, can be of assistance. Remember, people study the arts for different reasons. Bettering themselves is one of them.

Any bettering that a person recieves from a martial art falls into one of two categories.
Either its they gain something from the discipline and training.
Or else its a psychological effect where they develop traits which they percieve as being present in training in martial arts.

I agree that people can better themselves through martial arts, but that is not something we have a monopoly on. Those same imrpovements could be gained from almost any source, its just we choose to attach the qualites to the medium of martial arts, and develop them through it.
They're only there because we want them to be, and attach them to it.

 

[w.kaer]

Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.

DeLamar J.-
Check the user CP. There is a breakdown of rep points there.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic. In addition, if anyone feels that they're being unfairly targeted via the rep system, please feel free to contact an Admin.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Supermod

 

[Blotan Hunka]

One only has to search through some of the threads here to find stories about martial arts instructors that were arrested for rape, murder, pedaphillia, etc. The whole "spiritual" aspect of martial arts self-improvement is an Asiophille myth IMO. There are very few instructors qualified to be selling "spiritual improvement" in the first place, and if I were one I wouldnt want to be responsible for your "spiritual development" to begin with. Redemption/development begins and ends with you.

 

[Hand Sword]

Any bettering that a person recieves from a martial art falls into one of two categories.
Either its they gain something from the discipline and training.
Or else its a psychological effect where they develop traits which they percieve as being present in training in martial arts.

I agree that people can better themselves through martial arts, but that is not something we have a monopoly on. Those same imrpovements could be gained from almost any source, its just we choose to attach the qualites to the medium of martial arts, and develop them through it.
They're only there because we want them to be, and attach them to it.

I agree with you. I was just addressing the question of can Martial Art training help.

 

[Hand Sword]

One only has to search through some of the threads here to find stories about martial arts instructors that were arrested for rape, murder, pedaphillia, etc. The whole "spiritual" aspect of martial arts self-improvement is an Asiophille myth IMO. There are very few instructors qualified to be selling "spiritual improvement" in the first place, and if I were one I wouldnt want to be responsible for your "spiritual development" to begin with. Redemption/development begins and ends with you.

Sadly true about that. But in full agreement with the "you" part. I said that earlier. The person has to want to change first.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I agree with you. I was just addressing the question of can Martial Art training help.

No worries, I just like ranting