Red Flag for School?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes.

The standard is set for youth blackbelt. You test and if you meet that standard....you are awarded a youth blackbelt. You rank above Brown but below Adult Black Belt 1st Dan but you are still recognized by the organization as a black belt.


Let me add I could see the conundrum of creating the standards...but once they are set it should be straightforward.

Oh, I agree entirely that it's straightforward when we're looking at different ranks between adult and youth. I misread your previous post, then. I think we're on the same page.

 

[dvcochran]

I know some adults who have tempers, too. If they learn to control ("hide") them, should they also not be ever eligible for BB?

I think there is a big difference between controlling one's temper and hiding a bad temper. Certainly someone hiding a bad temper should be fleshed out in routine class thus delaying testing at any rank.

 

[pdg]

I think there is a big difference between controlling one's temper and hiding a bad temper. Certainly someone hiding a bad temper should be fleshed out in routine class thus delaying testing at any rank.

Isn't hiding it and controlling it the same thing?

To successfully hide it, you need to control it in front of others...

 

[dvcochran]

Isn't hiding it and controlling it the same thing?

To successfully hide it, you need to control it in front of others...

I see controlling it a abating the emotion. With hiding it, the magnitude is still there just not as apparent.

 

[drop bear]

I knew a kid at 16 who had over 30 boxing fights and was an amateur champion.

Now boxing doesn't have belts but as a veteran in the sport he probably would have deserved one if they did.
(Had a couple of title belts though)

So yeah. Kids can do everything an adult can do in martial arts.

Belts earned quickly and crap technique is pretty mcdojoie though

 

[drop bear]

And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it

You are stretching the hypotheticals there a bit.

Our female MMA fighter controlled her screaming **** fits in around a year or so.

 

[JR 137]

And they have a different belt. Youth belt is brown with a large black stripe in the center and the ends of the belt are black. In the hierarchy, they outrank adult brown belts but are below adult 1st Dan. But they are considered Black Belts and they are recorded in the lineage of black belts.

The style/lineage started in the 50's. It has grown to around 10-11 different dojos. Jacob was the 239th Black belt of the style/lineage.

What happens when he reaches adult age (as defined by his school)? Does he test for an adult black belt? Or does he automatically get an adult black belt?

No criticism either way, just curiosity.

Our junior black belts have a black belt with a white horizontal stripe (Oreo belt as I’ve heard it called). When they’re adult age (16?), they keep their junior rank until our CI feels they’re fully ready to test for adult black belt. There’s a gap in the curriculum between junior black belt and adult black belt, so the students need to learn that stuff as well as an adult black belt candidate, and they’ll be sparring with the adult black belts and adult black belt candidates.

 

[CB Jones]

What happens when he reaches adult age (as defined by his school)? Does he test for an adult black belt? Or does he automatically get an adult black belt?

He will have to test after he is 16 to promote to adult black belt.

The ranking actually has two Youth ranks -the hierarchy - Youth Black belt (under 13) - Junior Black Belt (under 16) - Adult Black Belt (16 and over)

He has to test for each one. Jacob just promoted in June to Junior Black Belt when he turned 13 and at 10 1/2 years old he was the youngest to achieve Youth Black Belt within the lineage.

So he has tested twice for Youth and once for Junior.


Jacob was also very lucky with his timing. He started when he was 4....but his Sensei usually doesn't take kids that young, but the Sensei's 5 year old son was about to start coming to class and he wanted him to have someone in the class around his age....so he allowed Jake to start that early. So Jake has pretty much grew up in the Dojo.

 

[axelb]

my judo school had junior grade up to black belt.
Once you reached 16 you went to senior green (about half way up the adult rank to black) then you had to work your way to adult black belt.

I think it's quite hard for a beginner to determine red flags, but there are probably a few tells.

high grades/senior students don't look capable of executing techniques; in many cases a competent head teacher has set up a club and has someone skills, but you should see others with a high skill standard.

teacher is evasive when you ask about experience/ credentials; any one worth being taught by should be approachable and not vague about experience/background

cost: check around the local clubs for costs, they should be comparable, and not involve lengthy contracts.

how long to a "teacher" grade; in most cases that is a black belt. less than 3years is usually dodgy ground.

 

[now disabled]

The age old debate on rankings ...

That will never (imo) be fully resolved as for each solution another problem will arise. For example me now, Yes I do hold dan ranks could I know go up against a fully fit holder of a higher or even middle grade kyu rank ?, I could more than likely out think them (maybe) but in reality I'd end up in a heap. So do I still hold Dan ranking? I did the hard graft and took the knocks the set backs the self doubt and all the rest, to the young and the up and coming I'm just a busted up has been or never was lol.

It did bother me for a while but now I let it slide and when anyone says to me that they are a BB I rarely comment and just let them bask in their own glory lol as if it something they need then it their need it does not make them any better a person than I am

 

[Druid11]

I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves. By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in. I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers. Treat the rank as a provisional black belt. Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.

My instructor often says that Karate specifically and martial arts, in general, are for adults, but that kids can benefit from them. That doesn't necessarily mean that kids should be taught everything adults are. I'm certainly biased but I think my school (Isshinryu Karate for reference) does a pretty good job of dealing with the issue. Children, and to a lesser extent teens, do have a different curriculum than adults. Mostly they kept from doing anything that might cause them long-term joint or growth plate injury. Also, the younger the kids the more simplified the curriculum is and the fewer potentially dangerous (either to themselves or others) techniques are taught and we also incorporate a certain amount of Judo throws and Aikido joint locks into our curriculum.

Because of the modified curriculum and the fact that our black belt test probably aren't appropriate for children (they last 24 hours) we do have junior black belts so, kids can still feel a sense of accomplishment. You must be 13 to get a junior black belt and the actual belt is markedly different than a full black belt. It is black but it has a wide white stripe running down the middle of it. When they reach 16 they can test for a full black belt. Assuming the instructor feels they're ready for it. You don't automatically get a full black belt by virtue of turning 16. We also have "extra" belts for kids, so they can test more often than adults so they can have goals to work towards (no testing fees so making money is not the reason) and don't get bored or frustrated staying at one belt for a long time.

To be honest I don't think kids are emotionally ready even if they are physically ready to be black belts. And depending on the martial art, they probably shouldn't get the full curriculum, a lot of kids aren't emotionally mature enough to know when to use or not use a technique. Nor do I think that kids should be in the same classes as adults. One of the things that frustrated me when I was looking to get back into martial arts was the number of schools (mostly TKD) that split classes by rank not age. I don't want to train with 5-year-olds. I don't think it's good for my training nor do I think it's good for them. One of the reasons I picked the Dojo I currently attend was that they had adult only classes.

 

[now disabled]

To the original poster

You like your instructor so that a plus

You obviously like the environment so that a plus

You feel (I think) your learning so that a plus

For the negatives you stated I would ask :-

Who is grading the students? ............ Your Instructor or a grading panel?

You mentioned bad form etc where are you basing that on and against who are you basing it, returns in a way to the above who is grading?

You mention that it is not wholly one art but Hapkido with TKD added, I ask (and I know little of the latter but more of the former although not in any great depth) which art is your Instructor qualified in ...both ? and why does he/she feel the need to do both or add to Hapkido?

You mention Kids could I ask why are you comparing a Kid to adults?

I'm not judging in any way at all

If you answer what I have asked then I will give the reasons for the questions

 

[marques]

I consider kids with black belts a big red flag. It takes 5-10 years of serious training to be any good. Where these kids got the time and seriousness to be that good? Not to say the maturity to know how and when to hurt people...

A red belt (I mean, an advanced student) should be able kick (or do whatever they have learned) on a live, reactive opponent. And that one badly fails a static target?

...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I consider kids with black belts a big red flag. It takes 5-10 years of serious training to be any good. Where these kids got the time and seriousness to be that good? Not to say the maturity to know how and when to hurt people...

A red belt (I mean, an advanced student) should be able kick (or do whatever they have learned) on a live, reactive opponent. And that one badly fails a static target?

...

But what if those are not requirements at a given school? I considered using red as one of my belt colors at one time, and it would have meant something entirely different (which might or might not have included the ability to kick at a resisting target). And what if black belt doesn't mean "any good", but "can do the basic moves"?

I have my personal bias about how I like ranks to be used, but I have to admit that others don't have to share that to be "right". Since I wouldn't be bothered by a school that uses no ranks, nor by a school that decided to use orange, red, and grey belts (colors I've never used in training) to mean whatever they want, I accept that they're also not wrong to use black, brown, purple, green, blue, or yellow to mean whatever they want.

 

[dvcochran]

My instructor often says that Karate specifically and martial arts, in general, are for adults, but that kids can benefit from them. That doesn't necessarily mean that kids should be taught everything adults are. I'm certainly biased but I think my school (Isshinryu Karate for reference) does a pretty good job of dealing with the issue. Children, and to a lesser extent teens, do have a different curriculum than adults. Mostly they kept from doing anything that might cause them long-term joint or growth plate injury. Also, the younger the kids the more simplified the curriculum is and the fewer potentially dangerous (either to themselves or others) techniques are taught and we also incorporate a certain amount of Judo throws and Aikido joint locks into our curriculum.

Because of the modified curriculum and the fact that our black belt test probably aren't appropriate for children (they last 24 hours) we do have junior black belts so, kids can still feel a sense of accomplishment. You must be 13 to get a junior black belt and the actual belt is markedly different than a full black belt. It is black but it has a wide white stripe running down the middle of it. When they reach 16 they can test for a full black belt. Assuming the instructor feels they're ready for it. You don't automatically get a full black belt by virtue of turning 16. We also have "extra" belts for kids, so they can test more often than adults so they can have goals to work towards (no testing fees so making money is not the reason) and don't get bored or frustrated staying at one belt for a long time.

To be honest I don't think kids are emotionally ready even if they are physically ready to be black belts. And depending on the martial art, they probably shouldn't get the full curriculum, a lot of kids aren't emotionally mature enough to know when to use or not use a technique. Nor do I think that kids should be in the same classes as adults. One of the things that frustrated me when I was looking to get back into martial arts was the number of schools (mostly TKD) that split classes by rank not age. I don't want to train with 5-year-olds. I don't think it's good for my training nor do I think it's good for them. One of the reasons I picked the Dojo I currently attend was that they had adult only classes.

One thing my GM never does in regular weekly classes is restrict who can come to class. However, the second (later) class is considered an adult oriented class. The burden is put on the Instructor to balance the workout dependent on who is there. It also makes for a much more personal workout when you know the Instructor is working directly with you.
You mentioned the emotional readiness of children testing for BB. I agree and that is why they receive a conditional black belt.
You also mention that you do not like working out with kids. Part of any class we have will have the kids sitting at times while working with other ages. They have to set up straight, cannot use the wall and have to be quiet and still. This is a real challenge for some that is teaching them many things (some which they should get at home but aren't). This is also true of many adults I see.
Today's world is so busy and full of stuff to do we forget that there is a real value in learning how to be still and quiet to listen, watch and learn.

 

[Superperson]

To the original poster

You like your instructor so that a plus

You obviously like the environment so that a plus

You feel (I think) your learning so that a plus

For the negatives you stated I would ask :-

Who is grading the students? ............ Your Instructor or a grading panel?

You mentioned bad form etc where are you basing that on and against who are you basing it, returns in a way to the above who is grading?

You mention that it is not wholly one art but Hapkido with TKD added, I ask (and I know little of the latter but more of the former although not in any great depth) which art is your Instructor qualified in ...both ? and why does he/she feel the need to do both or add to Hapkido?

You mention Kids could I ask why are you comparing a Kid to adults?

I'm not judging in any way at all

If you answer what I have asked then I will give the reasons for the questions

Who is grading? I believe its a mix of a grading panel and the teacher together as I've seen the table and the other judges when the child was given his black belt title. Although I've never asked so I could be wrong.

Bad from - I suppose I'm basing that on my own expectations. Given me lack ok experience my expectations could be to high or completely off base. I just assumed a 2nd degree black belt would be able to preform kicks pretty spot on.

As for why I'm begin taught both TKD and Hapkido...thats a good question. From what I understand the teacher feels they intertwine well together and Hapkido can benefit from learning the kicks and such from the other. I liked it because I wanted to learn TKD and Hapkido so its nice I get some of the TKD mixed in.

Here is what his website says about his qualifications...
Attained a 5th DAN Certificate for Tae Kwon Do from President of Korea Tae Kwon Do Association and President of Kukkiwon.
Attained a 4th DAN Certificate for Hap Ki Do from Korea Hapki Martial Arts Federation

As for the last question, I was comparing kids to adults because I assumed they were learning the same curriculum and by looking at a black belt child im looking at what my skills might be when I reach such a stage.

Hope I answered all your questions sufficiently.

 

[Druid11]

One thing my GM never does in regular weekly classes is restrict who can come to class. However, the second (later) class is considered an adult oriented class. The burden is put on the Instructor to balance the workout dependent on who is there. It also makes for a much more personal workout when you know the Instructor is working directly with you.
You mentioned the emotional readiness of children testing for BB. I agree and that is why they receive a conditional black belt.
You also mention that you do not like working out with kids. Part of any class we have will have the kids sitting at times while working with other ages. They have to set up straight, cannot use the wall and have to be quiet and still. This is a real challenge for some that is teaching them many things (some which they should get at home but aren't). This is also true of many adults I see.
Today's world is so busy and full of stuff to do we forget that there is a real value in learning how to be still and quiet to listen, watch and learn.

All our classes are taught by an instructor, quite often the head instructor. I've seen in some other schools where the kids' classes are taught by high ranked teens or even intermediately ranked adults. Our school doesn't do things like that so I don't see the kids as getting a lesser level of instruction. My issues with training with kids aren't really solely because of behavior or focus, though I don't particularly want to wait around in class until the kids are quite and under control. I help with the kids' classes and I actually find the students that have been coming for awhile to generally be really well behaved and very respectful for the most part. But we have kids on the autism spectrum and other kids that aren't neurotypical and sometimes the kids' classes do become bogged down trying to deal with behavior issues, which would annoy me if I was actually taking the class.

My issue with actually taking classes with kids is that I feel I have to restrict the level of my own training, especially when training with partners. If I a school only offers mixed age classes and the majority of their students are children once in a while you'll end up as the only adult in a class. I have no desire to spar a kid. I don't want to work joint locks with a child and I definitely don't want to grapple with one, which are all things that my school does, in the adult class. I don't think it's appropriate for a ten-year-old to hold a pad for me, and I am not going to get as much out of my workout if I can't use a fraction of the power I usually do. There are also issues about what can be discussed in class. If we're talking about self-defense in the kids class we usually phrase it as a bully or an adult they don't know. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss with young kids what you can do if someone is on top of you trying to rape you. So no, I don't like training with children and if I was participating in another sport I wouldn't be expected to train with kids. How often do you see a mixed age (as in 5-adult) soccer or softball league? I enjoy helping with their classes, but when I take a class I prefer it to be with other adults or at least older teens.

On the flip side, kids are kids and should have fun. Their classes should be fun, even if they are also being taught discipline. We often play games in class with the kids. Their fun shouldn't be hampered by a bunch of adults who don't really want to play a silly game.

 

[Druid11]

Who is grading? I believe its a mix of a grading panel and the teacher together as I've seen the table and the other judges when the child was given his black belt title. Although I've never asked so I could be wrong.

Bad from - I suppose I'm basing that on my own expectations. Given me lack ok experience my expectations could be to high or completely off base. I just assumed a 2nd degree black belt would be able to preform kicks pretty spot on.

As for why I'm begin taught both TKD and Hapkido...thats a good question. From what I understand the teacher feels they intertwine well together and Hapkido can benefit from learning the kicks and such from the other. I liked it because I wanted to learn TKD and Hapkido so its nice I get some of the TKD mixed in.

Here is what his website says about his qualifications...
Attained a 5th DAN Certificate for Tae Kwon Do from President of Korea Tae Kwon Do Association and President of Kukkiwon.
Attained a 4th DAN Certificate for Hap Ki Do from Korea Hapki Martial Arts Federation

As for the last question, I was comparing kids to adults because I assumed they were learning the same curriculum and by looking at a black belt child im looking at what my skills might be when I reach such a stage.

Hope I answered all your questions sufficiently.

In my experience just because a kid did a technique sloppily doesn't necessarily mean they aren't capable of doing correctly and cleanly. While it's part of the reason I don't personally think that kids should be full black belts (let alone 2nd-degree black belts), it may be possible that kid can do a spectacular kick, they were just feeling lazy or contrary that day. Often when I help I see kids do things sloppy even when I have seen them do the same technique perfectly the class before. Kids are immature and they'll be sloppy or lazy because they just feel like that day. I'll usually call them out on it (as do the instructors and other helpers) and tell them I've seen them do better. Most of the time that will spur them to do it correctly...at least for a while.

My point being, that just because a child did a technique wrong or sloppily doesn't necessarily reflect on the level of instruction or the criteria to become a black belt or above. But on the other hand, I would question why an instructor is letting a 2nd-degree black belt get away with sloppy technique if they know they can do better. Do other adult students perform techniques cleanly? While I don't agree with kids getting full black belts for reasons I think I've already enumerated, I don't think that giving out black belts to kids necessarily means it's a poor school. In general, if you enjoy training and feel like you're getting something out of it, then I wouldn't worry too much about what other students look like, especially the kids.

 

[marques]

But what if those are not requirements at a given school? I considered using red as one of my belt colors at one time, and it would have meant something entirely different (which might or might not have included the ability to kick at a resisting target). And what if black belt doesn't mean "any good", but "can do the basic moves"?

It is a fair question. That leads again to the question what is a black belt? Or even, what is a martial art?

To me martial art implies application in some sort of ‘war’, thus opposition is needed (or is it a tango? ).

Black belt, to my eyes, is someone with some ‘war’ skill, someone that understand enough to progress on his own. To hit (or grab, whatever is your speciality) a live opponent is still a basic move to me (in martial arts). I did not say a hell of a well trained fit opponent!

But... who am I to set standards?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a fair question. That leads again to the question what is a black belt? Or even, what is a martial art?

To me martial art implies application in some sort of ‘war’, thus opposition is needed (or is it a tango? ).

Black belt, to my eyes, is someone with some ‘war’ skill, someone that understand enough to progress on his own. To hit (or grab, whatever is your speciality) a live opponent is still a basic move to me (in martial arts). I did not say a hell of a well trained fit opponent!

But... who am I to set standards?

Your view of BB is similar to mine - I like your idea of "enough to progress on his own." But I think that's not the level used by some. What I'd expect of a blue belt (second color rank) might be what some expect for the rank they use a black belt for. And it'd bug me, but really doesn't make much difference that I can see beyond that.