Recreation of the application of forms

[Flying Crane]

Not to call anyone / anything out, but many Aikiki schools will come out and tell you that the form is more important to them than function..art first...

Well, I haven’t talked to any of them personally so I don’t know what they are saying or what their intended message might be.

Personally, I think that may be a misunderstanding, possibly on the part of the speaker in some cases but likely on the part of the listener, especially if the misunderstander did not grow up within the home culture of the system. I suspect there is more to the message that may be lost if taken out of context.

I have heard the argument of the post World War II Japanese martial arts becoming a “do” rather than a “jitsu” and that meaning that combat use is no longer the emphasis in exchange for form and way of life. I believe that is what is often misunderstood.

It is my suspicion that the practice places heavy focus on form as an attempt to reach perfection in the technique. As such, that perfected technique can be extremely effective if used. Form isn’t about accepting bad technique and non-functional practices. It is about good technique, that can be used.

In modern society there may be little need to actually use it. So the practice can become more about a way of life, but it is built upon a fully functional method, practiced with an eye toward the perfect and ideal technique. None of it is about pure artistic expression at the expense of functionality.

How one uses the skill must have some degree of free expression and creativity, because how a violent encounter unfolds is unpredictable. As such, perfect technique will break down within that chaos, but the higher the degree of perfection in practice, the less it will break down within that chaos. But that isn’t the same as artistic expression in the sense of performance art or abstract movement done for aesthetic purposes, which is what I interpret when people say things like, “someone focuses on the art side of martial arts, and doesn’t know how to use it.”

 

[MI_martialist]

I stopped reading after you admitted you knew nothing about it but offered your interpretation anyways...arts martial.

Well, I haven’t talked to any of them personally so I don’t know what they are saying or what their intended message might be.

Personally, I think that may be a misunderstanding, possibly on the part of the speaker in some cases but likely on the part of the listener, especially if the misunderstander did not grow up within the home culture of the system. I suspect there is more to the message that may be lost if taken out of context.

I have heard the argument of the post World War II Japanese martial arts becoming a “do” rather than a “jitsu” and that meaning that combat use is no longer the emphasis in exchange for form and way of life. I believe that is what is often misunderstood.

It is my suspicion that the practice places heavy focus on form as an attempt to reach perfection in the technique. As such, that perfected technique can be extremely effective if used. Form isn’t about accepting bad technique and non-functional practices. It is about good technique, that can be used.

In modern society there may be little need to actually use it. So the practice can become more about a way of life, but it is built upon a fully functional method, practiced with an eye toward the perfect and ideal technique. None of it is about pure artistic expression at the expense of functionality.

How one uses the skill must have some degree of free expression and creativity, because how a violent encounter unfolds is unpredictable. As such, perfect technique will break down within that chaos, but the higher the degree of perfection in practice, the less it will break down within that chaos. But that isn’t the same as artistic expression in the sense of performance art or abstract movement done for aesthetic purposes, which is what I interpret when people say things like, “someone focuses on the art side of martial arts, and doesn’t know how to use it.”

 

[Flying Crane]

I stopped reading after you admitted you knew nothing about it but offered your interpretation anyways...arts martial.

Ah. I see you have all the answers then.

Good luck to you.

 

[MI_martialist]

You ar ethe one who said...I can physically express anything I can conceive in my mind...your words not mine.

This is a completely different topic.


As for below...umm...OK...

Without getting into detail, my example was one of a micro scale. The connection between mind and body. When you mention "martial science" that is more a macro level view. Though it can still be an art if brought to a high level as you point out. But then you propose that "if one cannot, then it's not art" this only holds true on the macro level. On the micro level of the mind/ body connection it is not the end result that constitutes an art but rather the pursuit. Just because someone is not Rembrandt doesn't disqualify them as an artist. In fact most are not but they are still artists if they are following the pursuit.

 

[MI_martialist]

I almost don't know what to say...another perfect validation of the problem with arts martial.

Ah. I see you have all the answers then.

Good luck to you.

 

[Flying Crane]

I almost don't know what to say...another perfect validation of the problem with arts martial.

Good luck to you.

 

[hoshin1600]

You ar ethe one who said...I can physically express anything I can conceive in my mind...your words not mine.

Apparently I must of misunderstood your prior post about martial science and art martial, as you put it. I guess I do not understand your position. If you care to elaborate more I would like to understand it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

One of many...what about actual fighting application?

It's a static position. What on earth makes you think it's for fighting?

 

[MI_martialist]

I am speechless I believe...in that case, front stance with right leg forward, with right hand extended with a punch, the left hand pulled back to the hip is a static position, so what makes you think it may be for fighting???

It's a static position. What on earth makes you think it's for fighting?

 

[MI_martialist]

I draw a distinction between what was originally called "martial arts' (jutsu in Japanese meaning art, technique, science, magic) and what is known today as "martial arts", which I call "arts martial" due to the lack of fundamental understanding of fighting application, to start with. Most "arts martial" are "do" arts, which are not really martial arts, but rather martial paths, or ways...philosophical, esoteric, etc.

I do understand that there are practitioners of modern methods who approach their practice with a jutsu mindset, and that is great...as it should be...I refer to those who create and interpret meaning into their movements without a real understanding...art...interpretation...hence "arts martial".

Apparently I must of misunderstood your prior post about martial science and art martial, as you put it. I guess I do not understand your position. If you care to elaborate more I would like to understand it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am speechless I believe...in that case, front stance with right leg forward, with right hand extended with a punch, the left hand pulled back to the hip is a static position, so what makes you think it may be for fighting???

You just described one application yourself. Closing distance (stepping forward) and throwing a punch.
Front stance is in no way a static stance. You don't stand still in it, unless you're demonstrating. Likewise, you don't leave your hand extended after a punch.

 

[MI_martialist]

I really am not sure what to say...first of all, I never said move...so how does one close the distance? I was making reference to a static position described...it is static until we move to another position, correct? Just like the attention stance, just like the ready stance, the "salutation" in a kata, etc...

Basic core thinking is what is missing.

You just described one application yourself. Closing distance (stepping forward) and throwing a punch.
Front stance is in no way a static stance. You don't stand still in it, unless you're demonstrating. Likewise, you don't leave your hand extended after a punch.