"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[Wing Woo Gar]

Depends. The Okinawan view of their karate is that the best self-defense is living a long and healthy life. I think someone once said that the best revenge is to outlive your enemies. lol

When I was younger I focused a lot more on the fighting aspect, as I get older I find I get much more pleasure trying to perfect my kata. It is a way to keep my body moving and to keep it functional. To me, IMHO, that is one of the benefits of a traditional martial art and why I didn't JUST focus on fighting.

There are a lot of training things that if overdone when people are younger will REALLY hurt them in their older years.

Well said.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

But is it better to win first then worry about how graceful and artistic the moves are?

You seem to focus on winning fights, these days, I think avoiding them is the same as winning. Maybe this is a martial skill or maybe it’s an art, either way I would bet it is low on the list of things you learn in an mma focused gym. One difference I see is the longevity of the practice. You say you are too old for mma. My Sigung was still moving like a cat at 86. How many 86 year old mma stars will still be able to fight at 86? We shall see. i have several training brothers in their 60s and 70s that are quite able and agile. I don’t see anyone over 50 in the mma gyms around here. I don’t practice mma but I make an effort to train a few times a year at other gyms with other styles than mine. I am interested in finding people who are as good at teaching as they are at fighting, they are the really special ones, regardless of fighting style.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But is it better to win first then worry about how graceful and artistic the moves are?

Only if you're planning to fight. For my overall health, I think it's much better for me, at my point in life/training, to instead build the correct muscles, gain happiness, improve my breathing, and my general mental state, all of which I've found kata help me with. Those are more likely to help my general life than fighting skills because I'm not all that likely to end up in a fight (de-escalation skills are also more important for that matter, but that's a side note), and if I did I'm at a stage in my striking/weapons training that additional training wouldn't drastically improve my outcomes. The only thing that might is grappling, which I am learning, but even that is less important for my wellbeing than what was mentioned above.

My current arts don't really have kata, but I've turned some solo drills into kata to do on my own.

 

[Flying Crane]

Only if you're planning to fight. For my overall health, I think it's much better for me, at my point in life/training, to instead build the correct muscles, gain happiness, improve my breathing, and my general mental state, all of which I've found kata help me with. Those are more likely to help my general life than fighting skills because I'm not all that likely to end up in a fight (de-escalation skills are also more important for that matter, but that's a side note), and if I did I'm at a stage in my striking/weapons training that additional training wouldn't drastically improve my outcomes. The only thing that might is grappling, which I am learning, but even that is less important for my wellbeing than what was mentioned above.

My current arts don't really have kata, but I've turned some solo drills into kata to do on my own.

I agree with everything you say here but want to make a specific point: kata/forms develop fighting skill, full stop. I will not concede that to practice forms means you are not interested in, and working to develop, fighting skills. I do not believe you were saying that, but I want to be very clear about that point: kata/forms practice, done correctly and with proper understanding, develop functional fighting skills.

There are some people who practice kata as pure exercise, without intention or desire for fighting skills. But that is a different issue, relevant only to certain people.

 

[Alan0354]

I follow what you guys are saying. I agree with health maintenance. I believe the more modern way is to do weight training. I talk mainly on fighting because this is MA forum. I spend half of my exercise time on weight/resistance training. MA exercise break down the body, weight training rebuild the body. As people get older and still doing intense MA, injury is a lifestyle. Weight training fixes most of my injuries. It is more efficient and make you stronger.

I said it many times already, I injured my back in the 80s and for a while, I cannot even stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs all the way to the toes. Doctor exhausted all different treatments, they finally put me on rehab with weights actually doing in the gym. That literally saved my life.

There is some magic about doing weights IN THE CORRECT WAY( you really need to learn how to do it, not just pushing and pushing, that can hurt more). Based on result, look at the top athletes today, they stay on top to the age people would not dream of just 30 years ago. It's all from weight rehab. If you just keep up with the weight without trying to stay on top of the game, I bet you can last as long as you live. It is so much more efficient and to the point. Time is money in the modern world. BUT, you need to get professional help to learn before you venture out on your own doing weights. It can be dangerous if not doing right.

As I said before many times, if I have to choose between MA and weight training, it's a no brainer, I drop the MA in a heart beat. I am always very adventurous, I don't believe to just blindly follow what is established. I always stop and think and question the validity. I do not defend the existing, instead I always find better ways to achieve the goal. Believe it or not, I usually find better ways to achieve the goal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not for everyone, and certainly not exclusively. Your post here implies a binary approach: "best" for winning fights, and everything else. But most of us have other priorities and preferences, even if winning fights happens to be the first one.

Even if you are training to "win," we have to keep in mind that winning "on the streets" is not the same as "Winning in the ring."
For example, if I focus too much on trying to hit the head in hopes to "Win" a fight then I'm going to either be disappointed or beat up, or both. The head is one of the most mobile parts of our body, and that's when it's the same level as our head.

Now imagine you trying to punch someone whose head is at a level that is taller than your own body. Trying to hit something at that height in a fight has a high rate of failure, especially if the person is just going to rush in with punches and no strategy. Even at low intensity sparring (picture below), that head is going to move. Now have a younger guy fight an older guy at full intensity, I just don't see how hitting that head is going to be a good plan for "winning." I've sparred against people who were significantly faster than me and there's no way that's going to get easier after the age of 60.

At the highest levels of body movement it could be a nightmare. This is when a person slips a punch in competition. Now imagine just trying to drive towards the person with the only focus of punching that person's head. That's not a winning plan. Even on a professional level, fighter train to hit more than just the head.

The concept of winning always has to be put into context to one's abilities, limitations, and the abilities and limitations of the attacker. If I was a senior citizen. Then I would probably focus more of my training on footwork, defense, and awareness, since most of the news reports that I see are of senior citizens getting hit with surprised attacks or sucker punches. I would want to keep those things functional for as long a possible.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I agree with everything you say here but want to make a specific point: kata/forms develop fighting skill, full stop. I will not concede that to practice forms means you are not interested in, and working to develop, fighting skills. I do not believe you were saying that, but I want to be very clear about that point: kata/forms practice, done correctly and with proper understanding, develop functional fighting skills.

There are some people who practice kata as pure exercise, without intention or desire for fighting skills. But that is a different issue, relevant only to certain people.

I agree with that. I should have specified I was making no comment on whether or not kata/forms develop fighting skill, or whether they do a better/worse job than other exercises, thank you for clarifying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I follow what you guys are saying. I agree with health maintenance. I believe the more modern way is to do weight training. I talk mainly on fighting because this is MA forum. I spend half of my exercise time on weight/resistance training. MA exercise break down the body, weight training rebuild the body. As people get older and still doing intense MA, injury is a lifestyle. Weight training fixes most of my injuries. It is more efficient and make you stronger.

I said it many times already, I injured my back in the 80s and for a while, I cannot even stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs all the way to the toes. Doctor exhausted all different treatments, they finally put me on rehab with weights actually doing in the gym. That literally saved my life.

There is some magic about doing weights IN THE CORRECT WAY( you really need to learn how to do it, not just pushing and pushing, that can hurt more). Based on result, look at the top athletes today, they stay on top to the age people would not dream of just 30 years ago. It's all from weight rehab. If you just keep up with the weight without trying to stay on top of the game, I bet you can last as long as you live. It is so much more efficient and to the point. Time is money in the modern world. BUT, you need to get professional help to learn before you venture out on your own doing weights. It can be dangerous if not doing right.

As I said before many times, if I have to choose between MA and weight training, it's a no brainer, I drop the MA in a heart beat. I am always very adventurous, I don't believe to just blindly follow what is established. I always stop and think and question the validity. I do not defend the existing, instead I always find better ways to achieve the goal. Believe it or not, I usually find better ways to achieve the goal.

There's nothing wrong with doing Martial Arts to learn how to fight. You just have to pick the best strategy and approach for how you plan to win a fight. Rushing in or Driving forward trying to land punches on the head of someone taller may not be the best strategy for fighting, especially if your opponent is better shape or has better footwork than you.

For me and because of how I fight. Your approach may not yield the outcomes that you want and it may be damaging you more than what's necessary, like the bleeding knuckle thing due to hitting technique.

 

[Alan0354]

This is one video that is very interesting. It is not just about the fight, the narrator is a Taichi practitioner and defended Taichi at the end. So it's not one way trashing TMA or Taichi. Just listen to the narration. I grew up in Hong Kong and being a Chinese, I really can relate to the narration. That they go out of their way to "save faces".

Xu Xiaodong definitely is NOT an elite, he got beaten by BJJ and he had to retire from MMA. In another video, he got beaten by someone using Muy Thai like knees.

He is definitely not rich and powerful. More importantly, not very good.


People might think since I am a Chinese, I should defend CMA. But I see and hear things when I grew up, I can relate to the narration of the video. That's why I am critical about this. To me, this make me look bad instead.

 

[Alan0354]

There's nothing wrong with doing Martial Arts to learn how to fight. You just have to pick the best strategy and approach for how you plan to win a fight. Rushing in or Driving forward trying to land punches on the head of someone taller may not be the best strategy for fighting, especially if your opponent is better shape or has better footwork than you.

For me and because of how I fight. Your approach may not yield the outcomes that you want and it may be damaging you more than what's necessary, like the bleeding knuckle thing due to hitting technique.

This is a discussion about MA on the forum here. I don't just practice for fighting. To me, this is aerobics. For self defense, I go everywhere with my Nylon cane and I practice stick fight just as much as MA. It's half and half. With half aerobics and half weight training. I am only putting 1/4 of my time in MA. I call this aerobics only.

But I believe in practicing what fit the best for my situation. I have no one to practice with, all the fancy moves cannot be practice alone. So I concentrate in practice things that can be practice alone. Punching hard, kicking hard, increase the speed. This I can practice alone and is good aerobics.

For self defense, it's the cane. I am even consider applying for a CCW permit as so many older Chinese are being attacked now a days. That is self defense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People might think since I am a Chinese, I should defend CMA.

I dont think any one thinks this. Much of what you disagree with is also found in non Chinese fighting systems but only CMA is the Bad Guy for the same technique. That's how it appears to me.

Also you have to keep in mind that many of us didn't train in China but we were taught CMA and didn't have the negative experience you have had.

Most will probably think that being Chinese doesn't mean you know kung fu or martial arts.

The same point that are brought up in discussions are the same that I've heard and have said to other people.

The thing about MMA vs Kung fu is that the MMA guys only want to fight Kung Fu people who can't fight. The MMA guys even admit as much.

I

 

[isshinryuronin]

. I have no one to practice with, all the fancy moves cannot be practice alone. So I concentrate in practice things that can be practice alone. Punching hard, kicking hard, increase the speed. This I can practice alone and is good aerobics.

Sounds a lot like kata!

 

[Alan0354]

The thing about MMA vs Kung fu is that the MMA guys only want to fight Kung Fu people who can't fight. The MMA guys even admit as much.

That I never heard of. Only one is Xu Xiaodung. He's not even a very good MMA as shown in my post already. Even if that is true, at least they are the winners. It's worst if one loses and still bad mouthing.

Consider yourself lucky learning from here. All the bad mouthing I heard, it's really a turn off. Not just to foreign MA, even between CMA. Always trash talk.

I remember in the 80s, me and a friend of mine went to look at a kung fu class, the teacher came over and ask me to push him to show he could not be pushed. Held out his arm and told me to push down!!! It was so familiar.

You should hear what they said right after Bruce Lee died. Everyone came out and said they can beat Bruce Lee.

All I know is MMA guys are constantly improving. You watch UFC, you can tell around what year the fight was because it's different. Before in the early days, once they told people down, they stay down and work the ground game. Later on, you notice people don't get pinned down? They got better in getting up, it's a totally different way of fighting. It's constantly improving even within MMA. This is how it should be, not hanging on to what was invented over 100 years ago.

 

[Alan0354]

Sounds a lot like kata!

No, it's all two to three steps moves. like punch high, then kick low. Kick to body and punch high. Attack at different level. Very simple. Just try to practice until I don't have to think to do it.

Just like What Kung-Fu-Wang always talk. I first thought he was talking kata like stuffs. But then I realize he is talking about one or two step moves that can be used in fights. Be that his stuffs are very fancy, I just stay simple as I don't have anyone to practice with on the more fancy stuffs.

Like I said, I use it as aerobics, not to go fight with people. It's better than running and all that. This and stick fight are my aerobics, then I spend half of the workout time on weights. You guys are really MA, it's exercise for me with the benefit of being able to do self defense if ever needed............Still, I use my cane as stick to fight.

 

[isshinryuronin]

CMA is the Bad Guy

This is only right. I've seen many kung fu movies where the karate guys are the bad ones. Not only that, but they were the ones who got beat up. How do you think the karate people felt? In the interest of world peace and equality, martial artists of all persuasions should join hands and seek harmony. After that, we can all kick each other's a**.

Most will probably think that being Chinese doesn't mean you know kung fu or martial arts.

Those same kung fu movies show the whole damn village inhabited by Chinese kung fu experts: The baker, shoemaker, blacksmith, and even the prostitutes were flying around doing spinning kicks when the gangbangers threatened. So, don't tell me all Chinese don't know MA - Just watch the movies!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only one is Xu Xiaodung. He's not even a very good MMA as shown in my post already. Even if that is true, at least they are the winners. It's worst if one loses and still bad mouthing.

He's the one I'm referring to. How can he be a winner if his goal is to beat someone who he knows he can beat? If he wants to make a point about how ineffective kung fu is, then fight against someone who knows how to actually use it? Why fight against someone who he considers to be fake and who he can beat. That was the who point of his challenges "To expose FAKES."

This is what happens when he fight someone who has basic fighting skills. In one of Xu Xiaodung's videos he lets someone punch him in his face (if my memory is correct). Everything that you see here is in almost all of the TMA systems. I'm with the commentator. This is not full force sparring. This would be intermediate level sparring. I've done hard sparring before and this isn't it.

This intensity is most TMA guys that I know train in. I'm only talking about the ones who train to fight or actually use it (and have a mat to fall on). Sparring time is a must.

This is TMA. I don't see Xiaodung's Challenging people like this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How do you think the karate people felt?

Karate People stink ha ha ha just kidding. I started out in karate and the little that I knew saved my butt. Karate has always been one of the top systems in my book. In terms of "Fighting how you train" A good Karate practitioner who excels in application will bring out all of the kata and then apply the techniques to you lol.

In the interest of world peace and equality, martial artists of all persuasions should join hands and seek harmony. After that, we can all kick each other's a**.

ha ha ha.. That's what I like the most about sparring against other systems. That type of thinking tends to come out. The best thing I like is that at the end there tends to be more respect about each other's systems.

Those same kung fu movies show the whole damn village inhabited by Chinese kung fu experts: The baker, shoemaker, blacksmith, and even the prostitutes were flying around doing spinning kicks when the gangbangers threatened. So, don't tell me all Chinese don't know MA - Just watch the movies!

ha ha ha..not even touching that one

 

[JowGaWolf]

Consider yourself lucky learning from here. All the bad mouthing I heard, it's really a turn off. Not just to foreign MA, even between CMA. Always trash talk.

Yeah I'm usually in my own world with stuff. I don't get into the trash talk. That's what basketball is for. Talking trash. I haven't played basketball in more than 20 years lol.

Just like What Kung-Fu-Wang always talk. I first thought he was talking kata like stuffs. But then I realize he is talking about one or two step moves that can be used in fights. Be that his stuffs are very fancy, I just stay simple as I don't have anyone to practice with on the more fancy stuffs.

From what Wang has shown his clips aren't fancy. Wang as stated that's he's not big on kung fu forms. He rather teach application, but even though he's like that, he's not against forms either.

You guys are really MA, it's exercise for me with the benefit of being able to do self defense if ever needed............Still, I use my cane as stick to fight.

Some people Martial Artist do TMA for the same reasons. For me, I gain a better understanding by learning how to fight with it. But there will be a day when I won't be able to explore martial arts like that. I have to train this way while I can because I won't be able to do it later. I would have used Jow Ga in competitive fights had I understood it when I was in my 20's. Unfortunately, I was a broke kung fu student so I was unable to continue with my formal training. Maybe next life time I'll get the opportunity again

 

[Alan0354]

He's the one I'm referring to. How can he be a winner if his goal is to beat someone who he knows he can beat? If he wants to make a point about how ineffective kung fu is, then fight against someone who knows how to actually use it? Why fight against someone who he considers to be fake and who he can beat. That was the who point of his challenges "To expose FAKES."

I am not for him, BUT, the few he challenged and beat are FAMOUS. They are not nobody. You need to look into that.

Xu is not that good, as said in the video already, he couldn't even make it into MMA fights and beat up by someone with Muy Thai. All that just telling me those "masters" are that BAD.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not for him, BUT, the few he challenged and beat are FAMOUS.

Famous for their fighting ability? Being famous is not an indicator of one's ability to fight.

i. All that just telling me those "masters" are that BAD.

When I saw the first video. I could tell that some of them never sparred against some who punches. Their footwork was horrible and the dressed as if they were unprepared. I also knew that they weren't a good representation of kung fu.. the Kung Fu Master clearly lacked the fundamentals of fighting and moving