"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[Kung Fu Wang]

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was merely an observation.

Why should my training has anything to do with you?

Can you find a different hobby other than trying to observe other's personal training"?

Did I ever talk about your MA training? I don't think I ever did.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why should my training has anything to do with you?

Can you find a different hobby other than trying to observe other's personal training"?

Did I ever talk about your MA training? I don't think I ever did.

It gets tedious, doesn’t it.

 

[Alan0354]

I missed the post here where sparring and other forms of full resistance training were called outdated, useless and impractical.

You read the latest few posts? It's not about calling outdated and useless, it's just keep insulting. So it work both ways.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The issue is some MA systems don't even have certain technique. You may learn all the forms in your system, you still won't be able to learn that technique.

You've said this before. It was nonsense then, and it remains nonsense today.
Forms are a learning tool. That is "A", not "THE". They are not the be all and end all of any MA system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So.... go train in systems that have no kata or forms... train in systems that only spar. There are plenty out there. If that is what makes sense to you, and you enjoy it that way and see the benefits... then find a system that trains that way.

What I don't understand is all the effort to tear down systems that have forms or kata. If other people train that way and find value in that type of training... why should that matter to you?

I have always wondered why people can't just choose the thing that works for them. For some reason, they always feel this need to tear down the thing they don't choose. Why put in so much effort to go after a style of training that you don't like? Why not just pick the style of training you like and be happy?

If we could take the energy we put into tearing down and proving that another style of training is outdated, worthless, not efficient, not complete... etc and spend that energy discussing, things we have learned or are trying to learn... we would all be a bit better off for it. And if we go the next step, and respect each others styles of training, even though it may not be for us... we might be able to learn from each other and improve our technique. That other style of training may show off and emphasize different details. If we spent our energy looking at how each style focuses on different aspects, and how to bring those aspects into our preferred style of training... we would all be better off.

Yes, you have conclusively proved that forms and kata are old, outdated, useless and not practical for martial arts training. You are right. Now, can we spend that energy discussing things we learn and are learning and how to improve our respective techniques?

Also, please forgive me if I continue to find value in those old, outdated, useless and impractical kata and forms... its a problem I have.

Agreed. I have a lot of love for the approach used in my primary art - it's why I've stuck with it for so long. I'm happy to debate the pros and cons of the training approaches, but I just don't get why some feel the need to put forth a "best" (and often "not best" = "worst") based on their personal priorities and expectations that others should share those.

There's a lot of benefit (for those using forms and those not) in understanding what benefits and limitations are inherent in the approach, as well as the benefits and limitations in specific forms. But if you don't like them at all, why let them occupy your brain?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It goes both ways too. It is not one sided trashing if you read the whole thread. I look at it as a debate and both should show proof. It is through debate that people learn. This is fighting art, don't we all want to win fights? Isn't that the common ultimate goal?

Not for everyone, and certainly not exclusively. Your post here implies a binary approach: "best" for winning fights, and everything else. But most of us have other priorities and preferences, even if winning fights happens to be the first one.

 

[punisher73]

Systems are all artificial and manmade. The system is going to contain what the original person found effective FOR THEM. Later on, some systems got combined and added new knowledge to it. They are also based on the environment (and even culture) for what they were created/used for.

Sports rules and equipment will change a person's approach based on this. For example, look at Pride vs. UFC. You saw different things used based on techniques allowed and the environment (ring vs. cage). Another example is that boxing has amazing skills but is only concerned with defending and using punches. Some of the defensive moves that are very effective for them leave them open when other body weapons and tactics are allowed.

Culture/Environment: I remember reading an interview with Rickson Gracie where someone asked him about being on the ground and the dangers of a bystander getting involved. His reply was basically that in Brazil (at the time of the interview in the 90's) people would circle around and make sure that no one else got involved. Rickson said that if he got in a fight in the US, he would strike and get away.

Fighting priorities also change what techniques are used. For example, in Okinawan karate, the kicks were kept low because they didn't want to expose the groin. That is why in the older karate styles you didn't see the modern side kick or roundhouse kick.

Sooo...yep, there are going to be a lot of things that we see in other arts that may not be used.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you think the idea of spending 100% effort to control you opponent's arms, but spend no effort tryinng to control your opponent's legs is correct?

When you see this happen, do you

- suggest that leg control is important, or
- say nothing and remain silence.

For those who has never trained "leg control", they may feel uncomfortable about your opinion. But will you just keep quite because you don't want to upset those people?

If we are afraid to speak up from the bottom of our hearts, why do we even bother to participate the online discussion?

John, I'm trying to figure out how this aligns with the discussion at hand. I haven't seen anyone here saying anythinng about tactics and strategy like this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are something that you can learned from sparring that you can't learn from form.

For example.

- You have right side forward. Your opponent has left side forward.
- You throw a right jab at your opponent's face.
- Your opponent uses left arm to block outside in (to your left).
- You change your right jab into a right hook and hit on the left side of his head.

I cannot find this right jab, right hook combo in any of those forms that I have trained.

Here is another one.

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
- You throw a right from kick toward your opponent's chest.
- Your opponent steps back his right leg and change side.
- You throw a left roundhouse kick at his chest.

I also can't find this right front kick, left roundhouse kick in any of the forms that I have trained.

If we assume this to be true, I still don't think that changes anything most folks have said about why they use and like forms. Nearly everyone I've ever talked to who used forms as part of their MA training also used some form of sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But I was pretty much told I don't know anything.

You've vastly exaggerated that. It was suggested that you may be unaware of some elements in forms, because you hadn't progressed to the point where most folks would learn those things. I don't know if that's true (the forms I use aren't structured or used the same way Karate forms are used), but that's how I read the comment.

It'd be like if someone who'd trained a couple of years in my primary art talked about problems with aiki principles. I'd start by suggesting they probably don't understand them, because I've never seen anyone grasp the principles well in that short a time. It's nothing against them, just that the progression usually takes much longer than that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You read the latest few posts? It's not about calling outdated and useless, it's just keep insulting. So it work both ways.

I haven't heard anyone say anything insulting about those types of training, nor about you.

 

[Alan0354]

Not for everyone, and certainly not exclusively. Your post here implies a binary approach: "best" for winning fights, and everything else. But most of us have other priorities and preferences, even if winning fights happens to be the first one.

You've vastly exaggerated that. It was suggested that you may be unaware of some elements in forms, because you hadn't progressed to the point where most folks would learn those things. I don't know if that's true (the forms I use aren't structured or used the same way Karate forms are used), but that's how I read the comment.

It'd be like if someone who'd trained a couple of years in my primary art talked about problems with aiki principles. I'd start by suggesting they probably don't understand them, because I've never seen anyone grasp the principles well in that short a time. It's nothing against them, just that the progression usually takes much longer than that.

Not to be offensive, my comments are based on watch UFC and other MMA competitions. This is fighting art, isn't the ultimate goal is to win a fight? You don't need to be an expert to see who's winning and who's not.

Like I said, I would love to see someone can go on the stage, using the style they practice, the movement they learn from the forms to actually win. Look at Gracie, they became world known by winning in the Octagon. Look at all the Gracie schools around the country. Any style can do that, just get into the ring.

I personally think the technique is NOT that hard and deep. You can find people teaching the MMA footwork, the way to strike on youtube. The hard part is to train, not the deep complicate moves that people have to "decode". Simple but just hard to master.

I think I said enough before I get banned.

 

[wab25]

Not to be offensive, my comments are based on watch UFC and other MMA competitions. This is fighting art, isn't the ultimate goal is to win a fight? You don't need to be an expert to see who's winning and who's not.

I personally think the technique is NOT that hard and deep. You can find people teaching the MMA footwork, the way to strike on youtube. The hard part is to train, not the deep complicate moves that people have to "decode". Simple but just hard to master.

Great. Go train MMA. You will get into great shape, and you will learn a lot of great technique. It sounds like this is the style of training you prefer. Thats great, now go train.

Why does it bother you that I and other people like to also train kata? It should not effect your MMA training at all. Maybe on boards like this we can share some of those details that we found in kata, so that you can learn them, without having to study our silly kata. Maybe you will be able to share insights on what it takes to make these techniques work on resisting opponents... I would appreciate that.

Look at Gracie, they became world known by winning in the Octagon. Look at all the Gracie schools around the country.

Just to put proper context around this... There are far more Karate schools around than Gracie schools. Most of those Karate schools compete and win. If a Gracie black belt jumped into a Karate Kumite competition, there is a good chance he loses. There are far more TKD schools than Gracie schools... and TKD schools fight and win all the time. If a Gracie black belt entered a TKD competition, he would most likely lose. There are more Judo schools than Gracie schools. Judo schools compete and win a lot too. The Gracie black belt would have a better chance in a Judo competition, but I would still put my money on the Judo guy in a Judo competition. Both Judo and TKD fight on a world wide stage, up to and including the Olymipcs.

There is nothing wrong with any of these arts, nor with the way that they train. They all train differently... these all fight on a regular basis, and train to win those competitions. Some use kata / forms, some do not. Pick the type of competition you like, the style of training you like and the style of fighting you like... then train. Why waste time trying to prove that some other style of training does not work? Use that energy to train...

 

[mograph]

It's more fun to watch if you expect him to suddenly kick his assistant in the balls.

 

[mograph]

Culture/Environment: I remember reading an interview with Rickson Gracie where someone asked him about being on the ground and the dangers of a bystander getting involved. His reply was basically that in Brazil (at the time of the interview in the 90's) people would circle around and make sure that no one else got involved. Rickson said that if he got in a fight in the US, he would strike and get away.

This is so important: cultural, historical, geographic context. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not to be offensive, my comments are based on watch UFC and other MMA competitions. This is fighting art, isn't the ultimate goal is to win a fight? You don't need to be an expert to see who's winning and who's not.

Like I said, I would love to see someone can go on the stage, using the style they practice, the movement they learn from the forms to actually win. Look at Gracie, they became world known by winning in the Octagon. Look at all the Gracie schools around the country. Any style can do that, just get into the ring.

I personally think the technique is NOT that hard and deep. You can find people teaching the MMA footwork, the way to strike on youtube. The hard part is to train, not the deep complicate moves that people have to "decode". Simple but just hard to master.

I think I said enough before I get banned.

You’re looking at who can win at an elite level. Winning (or even doing well) there requires a number of things that aren’t necessary for simply improving fighting skill. Most of us have other priorities, and will never put in the kind of time necessary to become the best fighter we could.

And sometimes, we like the exploration and challenge of an art as much as (or even more than) the fighting skill.

 

[Alan0354]

You’re looking at who can win at an elite level. Winning (or even doing well) there requires a number of things that aren’t necessary for simply improving fighting skill. Most of us have other priorities, and will never put in the kind of time necessary to become the best fighter we could.

This logic also applies to those MMA people too. They all start from scratch and it's up to them to be up there. I am sure they have other priorities in their lives too. So this is equal opportunity. Unless you say TMA don't have the talent to make it up there. It's a fair game. Those MMA people have family, have to make a living also just like everyone else. So don't say they are the elite ones only, why can't TMA attract elite people?

I cannot speak about grappling as I don't know enough. But for striking, things are quite simple. You can clearly see what works and what doesn't. This started even earlier than MMA. Bruce Lee came into the scene mostly boxing hands and TKD kicks. Who dare to challenge him at the time? Only after he died and people came out and said they can beat Lee.

It is very obvious boxing hands, TKD kicks or other that is similar ( Karate) are very effective. WHICH is already part of Muy Thai. Muy Thai add on top, elbows and knees to complete the striking part. I've seen fights that the competitor claim certain style, but when they fight, they fight like Muy Thai. They know what works and what doesn't. These are very straight forward that one can learn in a short time, just practice to perfection is hard. It's simple, like the fastest way and simplest way to go from point A to B is a straight line. Don't make it fancier than that. Less is more.

And sometimes, we like the exploration and challenge of an art as much as (or even more than) the fighting skill.

I have no reply to that. If I want arts, I play guitar. I was a working musician when I was very young. I was a working photographer 30 years ago. I guess if I want art, I'd do that. This is fighting art and just leave it at that.

I might not be an expert in MA, but I did a lot of things in life like science, music, photography to high degree. Electronics is my career, I was working and earn money with the other two also. One thing I learn, the solution should be the simpler the better. A lot of time, the simplest way is the best way. Use common sense, don't make it more complicate than it has to.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I have no reply to that. If I want arts, I play guitar. I was a working musician when I was very young. I was a working photographer 30 years ago. I guess if I want art, I'd do that. This is fighting art and just leave it at that.

I might not be an expert in MA, but I did a lot of things in life like science, music, photography to high degree. Electronics is my career, I was working and earn money with the other two also. One thing I learn, the solution should be the simpler the better. A lot of time, the simplest way is the best way. Use common sense, don't make it more complicate than it has to.

You focus a lot on the word fighting, and not enough on the word art (even though only one of those two words is in the phrase 'martial art'). If someone wants to do a martial art, it's perfectly reasonable for them to care about both parts of that word, rather than just one.

 

[Alan0354]

You focus a lot on the word fighting, and not enough on the word art (even though only one of those two words is in the phrase 'martial art'). If someone wants to do a martial art, it's perfectly reasonable for them to care about both parts of that word, rather than just one.

But is it better to win first then worry about how graceful and artistic the moves are?

 

[punisher73]

But is it better to win first then worry about how graceful and artistic the moves are?

Depends. The Okinawan view of their karate is that the best self-defense is living a long and healthy life. I think someone once said that the best revenge is to outlive your enemies. lol

When I was younger I focused a lot more on the fighting aspect, as I get older I find I get much more pleasure trying to perfect my kata. It is a way to keep my body moving and to keep it functional. To me, IMHO, that is one of the benefits of a traditional martial art and why I didn't JUST focus on fighting.

There are a lot of training things that if overdone when people are younger will REALLY hurt them in their older years.