Real World Attacks

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I've seen countless boxers fractures (typically fractures of the 4th and/or 5th metacarpals), generally caused by punching something unforgiving, like a wall. I cannot recall ever seeing one caused by a punch to another person.

Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight. "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm

 

[andyjeffries]

Hard to say exactly. I do know that before they started using padded gloves in the UFC, fractured hands were relatively common.

Still happens now. Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone. Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011. All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).

These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.

 

[puunui]

Closed fist strikes to soft targets are a good idea. Open hand strikes to hard body targets are a better option if available. I'll cite the works of Fairbairn, Applegate, Cestari, O'Neill, Lambria, Good, Blauer (all of which have had extensive martial arts training) and other combatives professionals that opt for open hand blows such as the chin-jab (which uses a palm heel). They understood the risks of injuring your hand which would then effect other essential tasks in the follow-up period.

Found this page for Carl Cestari selling videos. Here's one he made called "Bare Kunckle Boxing" and the picture on the DVD cover shows him punching his opponent's head with a closed fist.

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-5/6)--OS5--dsh-/Detail.bok

It is fool-hearty (or inexperience) to suggest, 'just toughen your hands up'. As someone who has done an extensive amount of hard-body conditioning, including the hands, arms, legs and core I can tell you that it is still too easy to injure the hand and/or wrist in a real world altercation.

Again Carl Cestari is selling a video called "Iron Fist Iron Body", so apparently he believes that hand conditioning is worthwhile.

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-7/9)-IRON-FIST-IRON/Detail.bok

Controlled practice in a Dojang or competition in the appropriate venue with protective equipment isn't real life, nor does it take in real world considerations. Further advice given has been to 'learn to punch correctly'...well Duh! But learning to punch correctly in the controlled environment of the Dojang, often while wearing protective gear (though not always), does not consider the factors that are involved in a real world altercation.

The thing that you keep missing, is that training using the modern competition training methods gear workouts with the idea that you will be striking full force against a live moving, non cooperative target, using hogu based scenario training.

The bottom line is this; professionals that actually use this type of training in real world settings advocate using open hand strikes on hard body targets as opposed to closed hand strikes.

Not Carl. See above.

I would take this experience over the opinion of someone with limited or no experience in real world altercations. That isn't meant to be a snipe. But it is worth pointing out that if you want advice on 'real world attacks' you seek out the experience of those that have had a LOT of them and find out what works well and what doesn't work so well.

I agree. I believe it is important to actually listen to what people with experience have to say, as opposed to listening to what others think they are saying.

That separates theory from experience.

Exactly.

 

[puunui]

Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight. "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm

Perhaps if he had done some makiwara or even cover punch hogu drills, he wouldn't have hurt his hand like that.

 

[puunui]

Still happens now. Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone. Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011. All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).

These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.

I'm not surprised. It's like breaking boards without first conditioning your striking weapons. The key is the conditioning.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Side note,
Street survival depends to a large part on being able to strike from all angles, and the closed fist is not always the best choice. And this coming from one that advocates the fist (first 2 knuckles). Ears, eyes, nose and throat being a good place to start, could require a certain hand position at close range to accomplish this.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7694/index.htm[/URL]

Still happens now. Jamie Varner broke his hand at UFC on Fox 4 this weekend just gone. Anthony Njokuani broke his in July this year. Dominic Cruz broke his in late 2011. All are since using padded gloves (and I'm sure there are others).

These are fighters with their wrists professionally wrapped and wearing (admittedly small) padded gloves.

Here we have some good examples of professionally trained, experience fighters that still get their hands injured in street fights and even in the ring with protective equipement. Some will try to say that these people haven't conditioned their hands though or that they 'don't know how to punch correctly. One would think Mike Tyson would knew how to punch correctly...

Oddly enough some that are inexperienced will try to support a weak position by going to google instead of listening to the words of those with more experience than themselves. For example, trying to pesent Carl Cestari with a picture of him using a closed fist. One would wonder if he actually ordered and watched the video instead of simply linking to it? Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool. Secondly, many videos are presented with open hand strikes. In fact, all of them (11) with the exception of one that are the adjunct techniques. As I have seen them, I can attest that they cover in detail WWII combatives such as chin jabs, elbow smashes, shin scrapes, hip checks, elbow spikes, EOH (edge-of-hand) etc.

Perhaps it is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist? Seems more profitable than spending time searching google for videos one hasn't actually watched.

 

[puunui]

Here we have some good examples of professionally trained, experience fighters that still get their hands injured in street fights and even in the ring with protective equipement. Some will try to say that these people haven't conditioned their hands though or that they 'don't know how to punch correctly. One would think Mike Tyson would knew how to punch correctly...

No one said Mike Tyson doesn't know how to punch correctly. Where did you get that from?

Oddly enough some that are inexperienced will try to support a weak position by going to google instead of listening to the words of those with more experience than themselves. For example, trying to pesent Carl Cestari with a picture of him using a closed fist. One would wonder if he actually ordered and watched the video instead of simply linking to it? Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool.

The point is, which you missed, is that here is an "expert" that you identified that does advocate punching the head with a closed fist. Your own expert which you cite contradicts you.

Perhaps it is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist?

Again, please make sure you tell that to all the people who think face punching a taekwondoin with a closed fist is the answer. You're hurting their argument and position much more than the other way around.

Seems more profitable than spending time searching google for videos one hasn't actually watched.

It was time went spent, because it netted the fact that your own "expert" which you cite says and does something different. Bare knuckle boxing I would think would include closed fist strikes to the head, just like it is shown on the cover of that dvd.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Bare knuckle boxing I would think would include closed fist strikes to the head, just like it is shown on the cover of that dvd.

I appears then that you haven't watched this DVD and simply posted a link to the cover. So really, you would have no idea what material is contained within the training. Nor would I imagine you've watched the other 11 DVD's that show open hand striked (and other body part strikes) and also contain that material within (as I have watched them). So no, I would not consider 11 to 1 as a contradiction in what is presented. As I've mentioned;

It is better to realize punching someone in the head just isnt' the best option and that many better options exist?

It's okay to admit your wrong. It's okay to learn from someone (or many someones) that has more experience in this area than you. No one is going to say 'gotcha' or 'I told you so' if that's what your worried about. We're all here for each other, but you have to be willing to learn as well as teach. The best teachers are also the best students and humbly accept correction and instruction.

 

[puunui]

Had he looked a bit closer, he would have seen in the body of the description, "THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS" i.e. they aren't a primary tool.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. This is what the body says, in full, unlike the edited version you put out above:

"THIS DVD COVERS BOXING AND FIST FIGHTING FOR CLOSE COMBAT. THE METHODS EMULATE THOSE TAUGHT IN BARE KNUCKLE BOXING. YOU WILL LEARN HOW TO HIT WITH POWER ANYWHERE ON THE BODY AND HOW TO DEVELOP AN EFFECTIVE KNOCKOUT TECHNIQUE. WITH PROPER CONDITIONING, TRAINING AND ATTITUDE THESE TECHNIQUES CAN BE USED AS A VALUABLE ADJUNCT TO OTHER SELF-DEFENSE METHODS."

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-5/6)--OS5--dsh-/Detail.bok

You basically left out the important part which is "WITH PROPER CONDITIONING, TRAINING AND ATTITUDE" which is what has been stated all along. And part of that proper conditioning would be his "Iron Fist" (as opposed to iron palm) conditioning exercises, which is the subject of another dvd by him.

http://stores.carlcestari.com/-strse-7/9)-IRON-FIST-IRON/Detail.bok

Secondly, many videos are presented with open hand strikes.

But he obviously thought so much about closed fist striking that he made an entire dvd about it, a fact you neglected to disclose when you offered him up as an expert.

 

[puunui]

I appears then that you haven't watched this DVD and simply posted a link to the cover. So really, you would have no idea what material is contained within the training. Nor would I imagine you've watched the other 11 DVD's that show open hand striked (and other body part strikes) and also contain that material within (as I have watched them). So no, I would not consider 11 to 1 as a contradiction in what is presented. As I've mentioned;

It's okay to admit your wrong. It's okay to learn from someone (or many someones) that has more experience in this area than you. No one is going to say 'gotcha' or 'I told you so' if that's what your worried about. We're all here for each other, but you have to be willing to learn as well as teach. The best teachers are also the best students and humbly accept correction and instruction.

You're more experienced why, because you watched some dvds?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But he obviously thought so much about closed fist striking that he made an entire dvd about it...

And made, at least, eleven others showing open hand (and other) strikes which he refers to as 'advanced' strikes on some of the labels. I would say that is a good indication of the totality of the training and what he advocates as priorities. And again, you haven't watched any of them and don't have any understanding of the content.

You're more experienced why, because you watched some dvds?

You know why Glenn. But if you need me to refresh your memory just let me know.

It's still okay to admit your wrong. Still time to be a humble student. Stop digging this hole Glenn. Take the hand...take the hand.

 

[puunui]

I would say that is a good indication of the totality of the training and what he advocates as priorities. And again, you haven't watched any of them and don't have any understanding of the content.

Watching videos isn't "experience". But in the Bare Knuckle Boxing dvd, does he have any strikes to the head with a closed fist? Is that one pretty much dedicated to closed fist striking?

It's still okay to admit your wrong. Still time to be a humble student. Stop digging this hole Glenn. Take the hand...take the hand.

Wrong about what, that Carl is an advocate of both "fist" conditioning as well as punching with a closed fist to the head?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well, it was at least worth a shot but I see it just isn't going to happen. Well, off the rabbit trail and back on to the topic of real world attacks and things associated with them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Mike Tyson fractured his hand in a street fight. "..the fight took place at 4:30 a.m. on a Harlem street....The champion's right hand was placed in a cast after X-rays revealed a hairline fracture of the third metacarpal bone."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067694/index.htm

I wasn't talking about professional fighters, who no doubt punch a lot harder than the average Joe, or even the average martial artist. And I really doubt that Mr Tyson conditioned his hands the way we do. Don't you think spending some time building up to full force unpadded strikes could have prevented this injury?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Undoubtedly the most common real world attack is the right hand punch to the head as most people are right handed. the left hand punch to the head is almost as common as there is still a large amount of people who are left handed and most people do not generally punch with only one hand. If they come in swinging they will most likely be using both hands. Some form of uppercut/upset punch to the body is also common as is the front kick (not generally the classic front kick from a martial art but similar enough such as a football style kick to the groin that can be defended the same way). a backhander, similar to a backfist strike is also something a common street thug might throw. Knee strikes and headbutts are somewhat less common but the basic movement does not require any special knowledge of martial arts. A palm push to the chest, front choke hold, lapel grab, headlock and tackle as well as a hair pull (mostly for the ladies), bear hug (if they are holding you for someone else to attack you) and rear neck grab are some common holds that you might encounter from someone without much training in martial arts.

These are based upon real world situations and events I have witness both before and after starting to learn martial arts.

 

[Cyriacus]

Undoubtedly the most common real world attack is the right hand punch to the head as most people are right handed. the left hand punch to the head is almost as common as there is still a large amount of people who are left handed and most people do not generally punch with only one hand. If they come in swinging they will most likely be using both hands. Some form of uppercut/upset punch to the body is also common as is the front kick (not generally the classic front kick from a martial art but similar enough such as a football style kick to the groin that can be defended the same way). a backhander, similar to a backfist strike is also something a common street thug might throw. Knee strikes and headbutts are somewhat less common but the basic movement does not require any special knowledge of martial arts. A palm push to the chest, front choke hold, lapel grab, headlock and tackle as well as a hair pull (mostly for the ladies), bear hug (if they are holding you for someone else to attack you) and rear neck grab are some common holds that you might encounter from someone without much training in martial arts.

These are based upon real world situations and events I have witness both before and after starting to learn martial arts.

Just to set the tone, im replying to offer context. I find your list quite agreeable as far as mundane fights go.
Im only adding that because i know in the past, a couple of brief discussions weve had have been of a more questioning nature on my part.

Your list:

-Right Hand Punch (Is common, but more because it tends to work pretty well. People arent stupid - Its rarely a huge wide swing.)
-Left Hand Punch (Is more common than one might think. However i suspect its more of an unintended snap of intelligence where you notice that your lead hand happens to be closer than your rear)
-Upward Punch (Theres really no difference between an upset and uppercut punch besides terminology.)
-Front Kick (To be fair, a football kick to the leg or body isnt much different to a formal front kick.)
-Backfist (Tends to be incidental, for the most part. Swinging your fist backward isnt something ive seen or heard of being done on purpose, however under pressure, people can tend to leave their arm out when they swing their opposite arm in, which can create an incidental backfist.)
-Knee Kick (They dont actually have much use [very often]. I suspect some people might try them because theyre led to believe they are. Ive never even heard of someone using them, but im not going to pull you up on that. Im not saying they dont work - Im saying you dont get a worthwhile chance to use them often, but some folks see them as being a low line attack, and therefore good.)
-Headbutt (There is actually more to headbutting than you might think. Do it wrong [and i do not mean the targetting] and youll hurt yourself. There is, in fact, proper headbutting methods)
-Hair Pull (Which works surprisingly well on men as well, if you grab a handfull of hair and dig into the face)
-Bearhug (Or body lock, which is used more often by one person against another than you might think, and doesnt rely on their being a group - Albeit, it is also used in that manner. Im not saying youre wrong. But it is pretty good as a way of dragging someone down to the ground, since it severely limits what you can actually do in defense, and offers some control over the spine. Dont underestimate body locks as an attacking method.)
-Palm Push To The Chest (Thats a bit of a complicated way of saying you go over and shove someone. Though i wouldnt really call it an attack. It doesnt do much. It usually either means theres about to be an attack, or that the person doing the shoving doesnt know if they want to commit to a fight or not.)
-Lapel Grab (Which also works surprisingly well, regardless of training)
-Headlock (Also works surprisingly well, unless youre really stupid and just stand there with your arm around someone grabbing at your own wrist.)
-Tackle (Requires momentum. If youve got that momentum, you have a 60/40 chance of stopping it from happening. But fights that start with tackles are usually when one of the initial aggressors mates decide to join in.)
-Front Choke Hold (One or two handed? Two handed is quite effective. And quite hard to get out of, even with methods of doing so.)
-Rear Neck Grab (Are you referring to a choke with the hands, a choke with the arms, or a headlock from behind? All of those are valid, mind you.)

Thats not a bad list as far as fighting goes.
One thing: These are all functional attacks which you can also encounter from someone with a great deal of training in martial arts, because they all work quite well.

 

[RTKDCMB]

-Upward Punch (Theres really no difference between an upset and uppercut punch besides terminology.)

The main difference between an uppercut and an upset punch is the angle of attack. An uppercut travels in an upward direction, most commonly underneath the jaw whilst an upset punch travels more forward, typically to the floating ribs or kidneys. An uppercut is basically a variation of an upset punch but they can be called separate techniques depending on your point of view.

The call them upset punches because if you get hit with one you get upset.

 

[Cyriacus]

The main difference between an uppercut and an upset punch is the angle of attack. An uppercut travels in an upward direction, most commonly underneath the jaw whilst an upset punch travels more forward, typically to the floating ribs or kidneys. An uppercut is basically a variation of an upset punch but they can be called separate techniques depending on your point of view.

The call them upset punches because if you get hit with one you get upset.

You pretty much just said that an upset punch is an uppercut to the body

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Since we're talking about upper cuts to the head and/or body, I'll toss out the arm pit. After a gross motor skill deflection or a trap or from a grapple an upper cut into the arm pit (particularly using a knuckle punch) can do wonders to cease hostilities from someone. Done hard/fast enough it can damage the shoulder and facilitate a lock or throw quite nicely.

 

[Cyriacus]

Since we're talking about upper cuts to the head and/or body, I'll toss out the arm pit. After a gross motor skill deflection or a trap or from a grapple an upper cut into the arm pit (particularly using a knuckle punch) can do wonders to cease hostilities from someone. Done hard/fast enough it can damage the shoulder and facilitate a lock or throw quite nicely.

Now to find a partner wholl let me gently try it on them