Real World Attacks
- Thread starter Earl Weiss
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No one said that open hand strikes are less effective than closed hand. But you claim moo duk kwan lineage right? Check out your moo duk kwan emblem. Is it an open hand or closed fist? And more importantly, why? Have you ever asked your teacher about that? I have.
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Well, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, but, yes, Glenn-the 3rd dan tournament winning, pre-Olympic Olympic hopeful-circa 1981, and, no he didn't make the "demonstration team" in 1988-I don't even know if he got to try out, but he got beaten by a relatively untrained man with closed fists.
Sure. Science gets science. Anecdotes get anecdotes. I just find that some people don't seem to know the difference between the two.
Did the relatively untrained man hurt his hand?
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I really think you are missing the point of his post.
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I honestly don't know. He did wet his pants when I choked him out.....:lfao:
No, he knows what I was saying; Glenn's just ignoring it with his usual obtuse obfuscation......:lfao:
Hopefully when he woke up, you gave him a talk about the dangers of striking someone with his closed fist.
Not really, just making a point about the kinds of arguments that come back when I post something. Don't know who your partner is, but you know what they say, anyone can be beaten on any given day. Sounds like he deserved to get beat up, if he let himself get shoved into a telephone booth. No shame in getting beat up, competitors in any martial art face that. In my opinion, if you have never been beat up at least once, then you really haven't tested yourself and you won't really reach your potential. I got beat up by a taekwondo practitioner, which is why I studied taekwondo in the first place. That was the best thing that happened to me, because prior to that, I, like many others, didn't really respect taekwondo, mainly because I didn't really know what it was.
It would seem that you would have opted to counter anecdotes with a scientific answer which may carry more weight (since most of us, myself included, give more weight to scientific answers). But without doing so, your criticism of him for using anecdotes rings hollow.
If we could take a momentary break from the interpersonal sniping, I'd like to make a little comment on the question of striking with the closed fist to the head.
What you see with regards to head punching is an example of the asymmetry of self-defense situations.
1) Punching to the head can be an effective method for knocking someone out and is thus a danger to be reckoned with.
2) Punching to the head can lead to a broken hand for the puncher.
If you are on the receiving end of a sucker punch to the head and get knocked out or severely hurt, it isn't really the greatest consolation to think that your attacker might have hurt his knuckles on your skull.
On the other hand if you knock out your attacker with a punch to the head and break your hand in the process, then you may have some unpleasant consequences - particularly if there are more attackers to deal with or if you have to use your hands for work the next day.
(Self-defense situations tend to have a number of these asymmetries, which is part of what distinguished them from "dueling" scenarios like a MMA bout.)
From a self-defense standpoint, your training would ideally include both time spent developing a solid defense against head punches and effective weapons of your own which do not depend on punching a hard skull. (Alternatively, you could develop the hand conditioning and technique which would enable you to reliably punch bare-knuckle to the head and not injure yourself. I offer no opinions about what conditioning & technical methods are effective for this purpose.)
What you see with regards to head punching is an example of the asymmetry of self-defense situations.
1) Punching to the head can be an effective method for knocking someone out and is thus a danger to be reckoned with.
2) Punching to the head can lead to a broken hand for the puncher.
If you are on the receiving end of a sucker punch to the head and get knocked out or severely hurt, it isn't really the greatest consolation to think that your attacker might have hurt his knuckles on your skull.
On the other hand if you knock out your attacker with a punch to the head and break your hand in the process, then you may have some unpleasant consequences - particularly if there are more attackers to deal with or if you have to use your hands for work the next day.
(Self-defense situations tend to have a number of these asymmetries, which is part of what distinguished them from "dueling" scenarios like a MMA bout.)
From a self-defense standpoint, your training would ideally include both time spent developing a solid defense against head punches and effective weapons of your own which do not depend on punching a hard skull. (Alternatively, you could develop the hand conditioning and technique which would enable you to reliably punch bare-knuckle to the head and not injure yourself. I offer no opinions about what conditioning & technical methods are effective for this purpose.)
What is that compared to "surviving"? In taekwondo, makiwara training has been replaced with hogu drill training, where full force strikes are employed against a live moving target. Striking a hogu correctly is not the same as hitting a makiwara, which is probably the best tool for developing one's forefist punch, but it is better than nothing. And though the punches are aimed at the hogu, including up around the collarbone, it is a easy and small adaption to aim that punch towards an opponent's face, which by the way, happens in matches. it takes developed skill to strike a hogu correctly, and that skill is transferable to a self defense scenario. But even someone argued not, the hogu trained body shots will take the wind out of you if someone strikes and you are not wearing a hogu. This is something that is explainable in a forum such as this, but someone will not truly understand the words unless they go through the training themselves and experience it, for themselves.
But the anecdote doesn't even apply because his hand was hurt when he failed to block correctly and was struck, and not when he balled up his fist and hit someone in the head with it. If he had done that and then hurt his hand, perhaps the anecdote would have fit the idea that it is not a good idea to strike the head with a closed fist. But that wasn't the case. Instead, the example went more to the idea that improper or a lack of training or doing a movement incorrectly or bad timing will get you hurt. It's hard to tell without more information explaining the anecdote.
Puunui, I'm not quite certain - in your post where you quote me are you under the impression that you are arguing with anything I said?
I'm actually very much in favor of punching to the body. As far as "what is that compared to surviving", I quite agree that if the only choices are punching to the head or not surviving a confrontation then it is preferable to punch to the head. I merely point out that it does carry risks* and it is a good idea to have alternatives.
*(For example, if you break your hand punching the first attacker then you may not be able to punch so hard when his buddy shows up.)
I'm actually very much in favor of punching to the body. As far as "what is that compared to surviving", I quite agree that if the only choices are punching to the head or not surviving a confrontation then it is preferable to punch to the head. I merely point out that it does carry risks* and it is a good idea to have alternatives.
*(For example, if you break your hand punching the first attacker then you may not be able to punch so hard when his buddy shows up.)
Sure, no argument with that. The pioneers say that the fore fist punch is the primary hand striking method, the one that receives the most attention due to makiwara training. Of course there are other strikes that are done on the makiwara, but the main one is two knuckle, fore fist punch. But if your hand does get injured, then of course there are other weapons to be used, such as ridge or knife hand, palm heel, elbow, etc. But the two knuckle punch is your primary weapon, at least according to them.
But let me ask you: How much risk of injury do you think it is when punching someone in the head? Personally, while the possibility is there, I don't think it is very high myself, especially if you are an old school type that sees makiwara training as an essential part of the training process. GM LEE Won Kuk said, and I quote, "No makiwara, no karate".
The heart of Okinawan GoJu is the fist, as demonstrated by Shinjo Masanobu Sensei.
If you spar with protective gear, you need to train makiwara even more to off set the striking with the wrong part of the fist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWw7N_4O98Q&feature=player_detailpage
If you spar with protective gear, you need to train makiwara even more to off set the striking with the wrong part of the fist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWw7N_4O98Q&feature=player_detailpage
I can't site formal studies, however, if it makes you happy I will say this.
I've seen countless boxers fractures (typically fractures of the 4th and/or 5th metacarpals), generally caused by punching something unforgiving, like a wall. I cannot recall ever seeing one caused by a punch to another person. Nor can I think of ANY hand fractures caused by an open hand strike, to a person OR an inanimate object.
Is this because people don't strike open handed, or because people who use open hand strikes tend to be people with some degree of training? I can't say with certainty, since there are no formal studies that I am aware of. However, from a purely physiologic standpoint, there is no reason to think that an open hand strike carries a greater (or lesser) risk of self-injury than a strike with the fist.
I'm sure injuries occur with both open and closed hand strikes to another person. But they're certainly far from common in the general population.
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Hard to say exactly. I do know that before they started using padded gloves in the UFC, fractured hands were relatively common.
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Correct.
Tony Dismukes said:
Exactly. This is the point I've made previously. Under duress, one of the things that can be seriously effected is manual dexterity. If one injures their hand(s) unnecessarily they further compromise that manual dexterity. This can effect to a large degree what would ordinarily be a simple task i.e. open or close a door, hold and handle keys, dial a phone, render first aid on self or others and a plethora of other tasks that may be necessary to effect self-rescue from a situation. Closed fist strikes to soft targets are a good idea. Open hand strikes to hard body targets are a better option if available. I'll cite the works of Fairbairn, Applegate, Cestari, O'Neill, Lambria, Good, Blauer (all of which have had extensive martial arts training) and other combatives professionals that opt for open hand blows such as the chin-jab (which uses a palm heel). They understood the risks of injuring your hand which would then effect other essential tasks in the follow-up period.
It is fool-hearty (or inexperience) to suggest, 'just toughen your hands up'. As someone who has done an extensive amount of hard-body conditioning, including the hands, arms, legs and core I can tell you that it is still too easy to injure the hand and/or wrist in a real world altercation. Controlled practice in a Dojang or competition in the appropriate venue with protective equipment isn't real life, nor does it take in real world considerations. Further advice given has been to 'learn to punch correctly'...well Duh! But learning to punch correctly in the controlled environment of the Dojang, often while wearing protective gear (though not always), does not consider the factors that are involved in a real world altercation. The bottom line is this; professionals that actually use this type of training in real world settings advocate using open hand strikes on hard body targets as opposed to closed hand strikes. I would take this experience over the opinion of someone with limited or no experience in real world altercations. That isn't meant to be a snipe. But it is worth pointing out that if you want advice on 'real world attacks' you seek out the experience of those that have had a LOT of them and find out what works well and what doesn't work so well.
That separates theory from experience.
Side note,
Street survival depends to a large part on being able to strike from all angles, and the closed fist is not always the best choice. And this coming from one that advocates the fist (first 2 knuckles). Ears, eyes, nose and throat being a good place to start, could require a certain hand position at close range to accomplish this.
Street survival depends to a large part on being able to strike from all angles, and the closed fist is not always the best choice. And this coming from one that advocates the fist (first 2 knuckles). Ears, eyes, nose and throat being a good place to start, could require a certain hand position at close range to accomplish this.
