Re No Peace in the Holy Land

[elder999]

In a West Point study it was found that 40% of the terrorists who attack Americans in Iraq were from Saudi. where does Bin Laden come from? Saudi.

Interestingly, I posted something related and relevant, here

The first question you should ask about your enemy is why he is your enemy in the first place.
—Joseph Sobran, writing about Sept. 11th just hours after it happened.


In 1973 I went to boarding school fresh from a suburban home in Peekskill, N.Y. Up to that time the only foreigners I’d ever met were my family’s friends from Portugal and Canada, my best friend’s parents from Holland, my friend’s Italian relatives, and a few Japanese and Korean martial arts teachers, but almost none of them count because by the time I met them they were all naturalized citizens and not foreigners anymore. In school I’d also met some Puerto Ricans, but they weren’t foreigners at all because as the song says, “Nobody knows in America, Puerto Rico’s in America.”

The first real foreigners I met were some Middle Eastern students when I was a freshman. They came from a place I’d never even heard of before. Just a a little more than a decade earlier, in June of 1961, their country had achieved its independence from the same country we’d won our independence from—Britain. We did it with guns. Theirs was peaceful.

I’d been invited into a dorm room to participate in a political discussion. The Kuwatis were nice, well-dressed, and congenial. They weren’t poor, disenfranchised camel drivers. They came from well-to-do families rich from oil revenues. The conversation, when I got there, was why they didn’t like Americans. The one who spoke the most made it very clear: he didn’t hate Jews, he hated Iraelis; he didn’t hate us, but he hated the American government. He and his friends hated us because we were over there and because we were meddling in their affairs.

They said Europeans and Americans had moved in there and taken the best land and had moved the Arabs at gunpoint into camps where they were now refugees. I didn’t believe it for a minute. I knew our country would never stand for that. He likened what we had allowed happen to the Palestinians to what the U.S. did to the Indians, which is why I'd been brought into the discussion. They took the Indians land and expected them to do nothing about it. Of course, from the time Europeans first set foot in the New World, there were four centuries of Indian wars. I felt uncomfortable when he pointed this out, but I didn’t give in. I continued to argue with them. This was more than 30 years ago.

Over the past five years we kept hearing the question, in reference to 9/11: ” why? why? why did they do it?” The official line is that they did it because they hate our freedoms and our democracy. Mortimer Zuckerman, Editor-in-Chief of U.S. News and World Report, refers to “...the so-called root causes of terrorism, alleged to be poverty and despair.” This, despite the fact that many of the hijackers came from middle class or wealthy families—and even Osama bin Laden is himself a multimillionaire.

While we’re trying to figure out why they did it, is anyone listening to what they’re saying? They keep telling us why again and again, but no matter how many times they say it, we keep trying to guess what their real reasons were.

Here’s what they have been saying since at least 1973 when I started boarding school: They did it because we support Israel, because we meddle in their affairs, and because we’re over there. (It may have been Ken Burn’s series on the Civil War where I heard this, but a Yankee soldier is reputed to have asked of a Rebel soldier, “You don’t own any slaves, so why are you fighting?” The rebel’s reply: “Because you’re down here.” Sound familiar?)

Even our so-called friends are trying to tell us why they did it, butwhen they do, we rebuke them. Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal tried to give $10 million to New York, but because he indicated that part of the reason the
terrorists attacked us was because of our policies toward the Palestinians and suggested we change them, Mayor Giuliani of New York City turned the gift down saying, “I entirely reject that statement. There is no moral equivalent for this [terrorist] act. There is no justification for it. The people who did it lost any right to ask for justification for it when they slaughtered 4,000 or 5,000 innocent people.”

Of course, the prince wasn’t justifying the act. As a friend, who is willing to help out, he was telling us the reasons the terrorists did it, but for saying something we don’t want to hear, we figuratively slapped him in the face.

There is not one politician in this country who is publicly willing to entertain the notion that the act was retribution for our foreign policy (though I wonder what they say privately). In fact, any suggestion the attacks came about as a response to U.S. policy is met with immediate censure that borders on censorship. It’s considered unpatriotic to suggest that perhaps the United States government helped bring this on, but the rest of the world knows this is true.

If you don’t like what I’m saying, let me ask one more question: Why did we bomb the Taliban? Is it because they harbored the terrorists and we’re after the terroriststhemselves? If you said yes, fine, but that’s not the reason according to Moslems around the world who have rioted in protest against the United States, gone to war with each other and, most especially against U.S. troops in Iraq. They have a different story.


Just as we insist on maintaining that September 11th was the result of the terrorists hating freedom and democracy, or because they’re poor and in despair—even as they’re telling us why they did it—according to Moslem mobs around the world September 11th has nothing to do with our retaliations. They’re saying we bombed Afghanistan and invaded Iraq because we hate Moslems.

Does that kind of denial sound familiar? It should.

(Geez, Irene, don't you sleep? :lol: )

 

[Tez3]

So the IDF strafes lifeboats and now takes part in ethnic cleansing?

The Arabs didn't think twice forcing the Jews who lived in Gaza out, the didn't think twice about stating that all Jews would be driven into the sea. I've already posted who the refugees in Gaza are. The Israelis at this moment aren't driving anyone out of their homes, the are defending themselves from the rocket attacks that are killing Israeli civilians so who exactly is trying to ethinically cleanse who here?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...f+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...tacks+in+Israel+Since+the+DOP+-S.htm?ABCDEFGH

 

[CoryKS]

The residents of Gaza live in Gaza. The residents of Egypt and Jordan live in Egypt and Jordan.

*facepalm* well, you fulfilled the letter of the request, if not the spirit.

Oh, excuse me. My mistake. It's not genocide. It would be ethnic cleansing. Still immoral, still a crime against humanity, but at least we all can rest assured we have our terms straight.

Well, yes, thank you, please use the correct term. To do otherwise is not only a gross insult to actual genocide victims, but it opens you to the risk of appearing illiterate and foolish.

 

[Tez3]

Good post Elder, the strange thing is that the countries of Kuwait, Saudi Arabis etc were all made countries by the British and Americans in the first place after the First World War. The royal families weren't royal as such but were leaders friendly to the Allies who put them on their thrones.
We have Kuwaiti and Saudi soldiers training here sometimes, this causes problems for myself and my female colleagues as they spit at us if we happen to be doing access control duties when they come into camp. We are female and we aren't Muslims. The hate if there is any goes both ways.

 

[Tez3]

Interestingly, I posted something related and relavent, here



(Geez, Irene, don't you sleep? :lol: )

It's not even nine o'clock at night my time lol!

I've been doing all my housework which I hate with a passion so everytime I do something like the ironing, washing up etc I reward myself with a little sit down with MT! keeps my brain going while doing those awful mundane things, I mean how stimulated can you get mopping the kitchen floor?

 

[Ninjamom]

That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.

That is why I would never make such an accusation without facts to back it up. The incident in question took place at sea. The 'witnesses' could only be from two sources - those physically on the Israeli gunboat and those physically on the American antenna farm. According to the testimony of sailors on the USS Liberty, the Israeli gunboat opened fire on the liferafts. The liferafts were lowered into the water because the command had been given to abandon ship.

Firing on liferafts in and of itself is a warcrime, whether the gunners attacked what they thought was an Egyptian ship, or an American ship, and whether the initial attack was deliberate or not.

For more information and quotes to back this up, please refer to Ennes, "Assault on the Liberty", or the Chicago Tribune article I referenced before. A clip of LTCDR (ret) Ennes (USS Liberty survivor and author) being interviewed regarding the incident is available on YouTube here.

I wanted to respond to your comment here. I'll post all further comments regarding this incident to the other thread.

 

[Tez3]

That is why I would never make such an accusation without facts to back it up. The incident in question took place at sea. The 'witnesses' could only be from two sources - those physically on the Israeli gunboat and those physically on the American antenna farm. According to the testimony of sailors on the USS Liberty, the Israeli gunboat opened fire on the liferafts. The liferafts were lowered into the water because the command had been given to abandon ship.

Firing on liferafts in and of itself is a warcrime, whether the gunners attacked what they thought was an Egyptian ship, or an American ship, and whether the initial attack was deliberate or not.

For more information and quotes to back this up, please refer to Ennes, "Assault on the Liberty", or the Chicago Tribune article I referenced before. A clip of LTCDR (ret) Ennes (USS Liberty survivor and author) being interviewed regarding the incident is available on YouTube here.

I wanted to respond to your comment here. I'll post all further comments regarding this incident to the other thread.

However the captain made no mention of any firing on life rafts. Odd that, you would have thought if it happened he'd be as mad as hell.
You posted no citations up with your post, all you said was that the lifeboats had been strafed.

 

[Ninjamom]

So the IDF strafes lifeboats and now takes part in ethnic cleansing?

The Arabs didn't think twice forcing the Jews who lived in Gaza out, the didn't think twice about stating that all Jews would be driven into the sea. I've already posted who the refugees in Gaza are. The Israelis at this moment aren't driving anyone out of their homes, the are defending themselves from the rocket attacks that are killing Israeli civilians so who exactly is trying to ethinically cleanse who here?

Several conversations happening in this thread at once.

Yes, the IDF strafed the lifeboats of the USS Liberty.
No, the IDF is not currently committing ethnic cleansing against the Gazans - they would only be guilty of such a thing if they acted in accordance with the suggestions of some on this board to turn all Gazans into 'good Palestinians' . Such suggestions must always be rejected to maintain the moral distinction between Israel and Hamas.
Yes, Hamas is the badguy. Go get 'em, Israel.
No, not every Palestinian is an evil murderer just becaused they live in Gaza. Neither are 'the Arabs' one amorphous mass.
Yes, Israel has a right to act in self defense.
No, no nation in this discussion (the US, UK, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, or Isreal) gets a 'free pass' - we all have to deal honestly and openly with the skeletons in our closets.

 

[Ninjamom]

However the captain made no mention of any firing on life rafts. Odd that, you would have thought if it happened he'd be as mad as hell.
You posted no citations up with your post, all you said was that the lifeboats had been strafed.

The captian was severely injured in the assault, suffering from loss of blood and shock. He was not in actual command of the ship for the bulk of the attack. Remember that this was not a short firing incident - it was a prolonged attack with multiple aerial bombing and strafing runs, multiple torpedo firings, and machine gun fire from the surface vessel.

The quotes regarding the strafing are in both the book and the article that I referenced, as well as on the YouTube video interview. Anyone desiring to ascertain the facts of the matter can read and/or view these materials for themselves.

ADDED ON EDIT: Apologies - I said I would move my discussion of this topic to the other thread. For follow-up discussion, please see the other thread.

 

[Tez3]

Several conversations happening in this thread at once.

Yes, the IDF strafed the lifeboats of the USS Liberty.
No, the IDF is not currently committing ethnic cleansing against the Gazans - they would only be guilty of such a thing if they acted in accordance with the suggestions of some on this board to turn all Gazans into 'good Palestinians' . Such suggestions must always be rejected to maintain the moral distinction between Israel and Hamas.
Yes, Hamas is the badguy. Go get 'em, Israel.
No, not every Palestinian is an evil murderer just becaused they live in Gaza. Neither are 'the Arabs' one amorphous mass.
Yes, Israel has a right to act in self defense.
No, no nation in this discussion (the US, UK, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, or Isreal) gets a 'free pass' - we all have to deal honestly and openly with the skeletons in our closets.

No, the IDF didn't strafe the lifeboats, other US witnesses don't confirm the IDF fired upon the lifeboats, some US witnesses also say that they opened fired on the IDF..... Countless US inquiries have proved it was an accident, no mention of strafing until long after the event.
I have taken statements of many many witnesses after traumatic events, the one thing they all have in common is that at any one event all the witness statements are different.Ask anyone who has been under fire exactly what happened and they will not be able to give you the whole picture. If the lifeboats had been fired on all the remaining crew who were able to see would have said so not just one or two, they may well have mistaken their own firing as the IDF firing on them, who knows. A couple of people assert that the IDF opened fire on the lifeboats, another asserts that they opened fire on the IDF boat thinking it was coming in for the kill although by then the mistake had been realised and the IDF and the Americans were sending choppers in to rescue the sailors.

 

[Tez3]

The captian was severely injured in the assault, suffering from loss of blood and shock. He was not in actual command of the ship for the bulk of the attack. Remember that this was not a short firing incident - it was a prolonged attack with multiple aerial bombing and strafing runs, multiple torpedo firings, and machine gun fire from the surface vessel.

The quotes regarding the strafing are in both the book and the article that I referenced, as well as on the YouTube video interview. Anyone desiring to ascertain the facts of the matter can read and/or view these materials for themselves.

ADDED ON EDIT: Apologies - I said I would move my discussion of this topic to the other thread. For follow-up discussion, please see the other thread.

You will believe what you chose to believe. I believe someone who was there not others books and articles.
The Israelis paid considerably damages to the families of the dead and to the injuried. some war crime?

From Wikipedia
The Liberty's captain, Commander McGonagle, was wounded during the air attack, but he remained in command on the ship's bridge.


Israeli ships' actions after the torpedo hit: Some of the crewmembers claim that after the Liberty had been torpedoed, Israeli boats circled the ship firing 0.50 caliber machine guns at descended (unmanned) life rafts and sailors on board the ship. Israelis claim they recognized the ship as American immediately after it was hit and ceased fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

You pays your money and you take your choice. You can't sit in a cosy armchair and decide one is truer than the other, thats why it's called the fog of war.

 

[Sukerkin]

Chaps, there is another thread that deals with this issue that was started explicitly for the purpose of pursuing it.

Please cease de-railing this thread with posts, however content rich they may be, that are not pertinent to the OP.

I shall look into the practicalities of getting the tangential posts split off but it may cause too much of a tangle to do.

 

[elder999]

And, back on topic, in keeping with the whole, clean house and eliminate action items before the U.S. crowns their new, temporary "King of the World" for four years insanity:

Israel and Hamas ignore UN call for cease-fire

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli jets and ground troops hammered at Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip and Islamic militants fired barrages of rockets at southern Israeli cities Friday, ignoring a U.N. resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire after two weeks of combat.

The Israeli prime minister's office said the U.N. action was not practical, and senior Cabinet ministers decided to press on with the offensive. Israel will stop only when it succeeds in ending rocket fire from the Hamas-ruled territory, the government said.

Hopes that Thursday night's U.N. Security Council resolution would end Gaza's worst fighting in decades were further tempered by dismissive remarks from Hamas, angry that it was not consulted during exhaustive diplomatic efforts at the world body.

The foreign minister for the Palestinian Authority, which was driven out of Gaza by Hamas in 2007, criticized both Israel and Hamas for not accepting the demand for a halt to fighting.

"Both have responded to the resolution in the same way, in total disrespect," Riad Malki said at U.N. headquarters in New York. He said the Security Council should enforce its resolution, perhaps by levying sanctions.

Seen here, there, and everywhere......

 

[elder999]

and, lest we forget in the midst of all the "yes they did," "no they didn't," "didso, didnot" blather:

In Gaza's rubble-strewn streets, there was concern of a worsening humanitarian situation on the second day of a U.N. suspension of aid deliveries and the Red Cross restricted its medical operations to Gaza City, where it has a team assisting surgeons at the main Shifa hospital.
The decisions by the two organizations came after they said Israeli fire killed two contractors delivering aid for the U.N. and injured the driver of a Red Cross truck in separate incidents Thursday.

With just over half the territory's population of 1.4 million relying on the U.N. for food, U.N. officials said Friday that they planned to resume aid operations "as soon as practical," based on Israeli assurances that aid workers would be better protected.
Gaza's people have become increasingly desperate for food, water, fuel and medical assistance. One million people are without electricity and 750,000 are without running water, according to the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency.

and this, of course, must be due to the infamous "Fog of War," because no civilized person, certainly no Israeli, let alone Jew, would do such a thing-one might expect it from Arabs, of course :

According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated about 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house. About half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said. The report also complains that the Israeli Defence Force prevented medical teams from entering the area to evacuate the wounded

Oh, and knowing how some might find the Guardian reason enough to doubt the veracity of the story, here's the same story from AP.......of course, it's really "the same story," becuase Israel isn't really letting the press into Gaza.......

 

[shesulsa]

Well, yes, thank you, please use the correct term. To do otherwise is not only a gross insult to actual genocide victims, but it opens you to the risk of appearing illiterate and foolish.

I'm sorry ... just for clarity, you are being feceitious, aren't you?

 

[Tez3]

and, lest we forget in the midst of all the "yes they did," "no they didn't," "didso, didnot" blather:



and this, of course, must be due to the infamous "Fog of War," because no civilized person, certainly no Israeli, let alone Jew, would do such a thing-one might expect it from Arabs, of course :



Oh, and knowing how some might find the Guardian reason enough to doubt the veracity of the story, here's the same story from AP.......of course, it's really "the same story," becuase Israel isn't really letting the press into Gaza.......

Love the Guardian comment! Officers messes in the British Army aren't allowed the Guardian!

You know of course that the Israeli soldiers could be Muslims not Jews? they could also be Christians.
http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/294992-1.html

That doesn't excuse an action like this though if true but does give food for thought.

 

[elder999]

You know of course that the Israeli soldiers could be Muslims not Jews? they could also be Christians..

Yes, I am aware of that. My familiarity with members of Israel's government and military have been a bone of contention between me and my government in the past. :lol:

 

[CoryKS]

I'm sorry ... just for clarity, you are being feceitious, aren't you?

To an extent. I think the word genocide has been terribly abused of late. Hyperbole tends to devalue useful words with real meanings.

 

[Tez3]

Yes, I am aware of that. My familiarity with members of Israel's government and military have been a bone of contention between me and my government in the past. :lol:

I'm fairly lucky that way. My parents had been in the IDF, my father first having served in the British army (in the Gordons) then my brother went into the IDF (Navy) but the British were quite happy for me to go into the RAF. Probably a lot happier than taking in at the time people from Eire who were legally entitled to join the British forces for various reasons but who joined up with the sole purpose of learning everything they could as they were actually IRA sympathisers who would go on to become 'fulltime' terrorists.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.

Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.

You need to remember there were TWO more 'interest' groups that found fabricating a 'Palestinian cause' useful......the Soviet Union, who saw it as a counter-nationalist movement to oppose Israel, which by that point had aligned with the US, and the Islamic Brotherhood movement in Egypt, which evolved in to many terrorist organizations we know of today, and which was offended by a non-Islamic government in the middle east, and aspired to a new Pan-Arab Islamic Super-State!