Re No Peace in the Holy Land

[sgtmac_46]

Lest we forget:

Attack on the USS Liberty in international waters during the 1967 Six Days War: 34 US dead and 170 wounded.

Fog of war!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/02/horrific_friend.html

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2003/04/06/bombing_accident030406.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/08/24/uk_us_bomb_kills_3_british_soldiers/

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060813/friendly_fire_060904/20060904


Fratricide happens.....the Fog of war is real.....I never saw anything different in the Liberty incident than the US shooting down an Iranian airliner and killing 300 civilians by mistake. It happens!

 

[sgtmac_46]

why wernt the jews in possesion of thier land in the 1940's?

thats right, driven out by muslim agression

whats the current problem?

thats right, muslim agression

what is the biggest threat to the US, and the entire world for that matter?

(do I really need to say it?)

seems like a pattern to me.............

and before anyone throws the racist card again, i dont have a problem with muslims by and large, tho i DO have a problem with islam. The only muslims I have a problem with are the ones that want to KILL EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET THAT ISNT MUSLIM, and the ones that support the ones that do

An important impediment for someone bringing up the race card is that Islam IS NOT a race.

By most reasonable estimates the percentage of the 1 Billion Muslims worldwide that are considered 'Fundamentalists', i.e. those who are the problem, is 10%.......that's 100 Million Fundamentalist Islamists who believe that Allah has divinely ordered Jihad on Dar al-Harb!

 

[Tez3]

How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?

The Jews never left Israel/Palestine you know, the whole lot didn't get up and wander off, many left yes but always there's been Jews in the Holy Land. did I say left? No, thats not correct even, they were driven out. And dear god didn't the world make us suffer for it. There's barely a country in the world that hasn't had a pogrom or rules that says Jews shall not or turned us away in our hour of need. We were given Isreal because of guilt were we? No, Israel is ours by right. We didn't drive Arabs out, in the beginning they sold their land, it was dry and useless, Jews made it green and productive, the Arabs wanted their land back. The Nazi idealogy took hold, kill Jews was the mantra. And kill Jews they did, all over Europe and in the Middle East where the Mufti had spread his poisonous message.

After the war, survivors from the camps needed to go somewhere, some went back to their 'home's to find in Poland for example the locals living in them, in some cases the locals killed them. All that was left was to go to somewhere that had been promised, what was called Palestine.

I will touch on the King David bombing and the Irgun terrorism. The British at that time were cracking down very hard on anyone trying to get into the country, can you imagine coming out of a concentration camp, travelling on foot through Europe looking for that last hope just to be put in another concentration camp in Cyprus? Jews had fought and died along side the Allied troops all through the war only to find their colleagues turning against them. The British took the weapons off the Jewish settlers already there and armed the Arabs, the Foreign Office policy was and is pro Arab not pro Jewish. Britain didn't want the Jews there.

Now imagine coming out of the concentration camps that you'd been put in as a child, you've watched mindless and unimaginable horrors and become totally dehumanised, you've lost every memeber of your family. The Jews from the Haganah have smuggled you into Palestine where you work for them but thats not enough for you, there's nothing normal about you anymore, violence, extreme violence is the only way to make others pay for everything so you go join the Irgun where the others are like you, you blow up the King David Hotel because the British are about to hang several of your comrades. Because there is a scrap of humanity left in someone the British are warned, BUT THEY IGNORE THE WARNING and many are killed.

The world Zionist organisations and the rest of Jewry condemned the violence, the Irgun and the Stern Gang were undoubtedly very violent and weren't supported by all but heres the thing, when you come down to it, as Jews you still blame us all. It was the Jews you cry as the cry has been for all these long years. The Jew did it. the Jews are killing the children, the Jews take our jobs, the Jews are responsible for everything wrong in our world. See the Jews kill the Arab children goes up the cry,see the Jews take our land, see how they kill us. And you do, you believe that we took their land instead of them selling it to us, you believe we stole their homes when the Mufti called them to leave them instead. You believe that Israel is wrong to defend itself. Because you believe Israel is wrong.

War is dirty, war is hell you can't make it clean and only have soldiers die, you can't have a one sided peace treaty, for years the Arabs have been firing rockets into Israel killing civilians, suicide bombers have been blowing themselves up and innocents too, many Arabs have died this way, the killing is indescriminate. Yet Israel is to blame. is this anti Semitism or are you believing that the Arabs are lesser people and don't know right from wrong therefore the Israelis must be the ones held accountable?


Israel has a right to exist, the right that everyone else takes for granted. Our people have been there since Biblical times. I know many people who have relatives there who have never left Israel in over two thousand years. It was never an Arab country, it was actually owned by the Turks not the Arabs and then the British took it over, it was never an Arab country.

My thanks and gratitude to all who support Israel, never think it's not appreciated.

 

[Tez3]

Ninjamom, the fog of war is indeed very real. American troops have killed several British soldiers in Iraq. British soldiers have also had friendly fire incidents killing allied troops. It's not something to be brought up as an indication that the Americans for example are bad killing for our soldiers. The Israelis didn't kill the Americans on purpose no more than the Americans killed our soldiers on purpose.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As to why there wasn't an Israel for a large number of centuries, well, on this one I don't think you quite have the historical 'ducks in a row', so to speak.

The origins of the Muslim faith post-date the destruction of a Jewish nation by about half a millenia; or as far as I know anyhow i.e. no guarantees. It was, I think, in fact the Romans who were the architects of the beginning of that dismantling.

I only quickly Googled these two links up so please feel free to shoot holes in them if they prove sub-par and I'll dig deeper.


http://www.important.ca/origins_of_islam.html

http://wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/DIASPORA.HTM

Why there hasn't been a Jewish state, you are essentially correct.....

The Roman Empire, which ruled the region for centuries.......and transitioned to control by the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire......which began it's decline due to internal and external pressures......and finally Mohammad arrived on the scene, and the Islamic hordes began their conquest of the entire middle east, north Africa, and even the Iberian Peninsula, all accomplished within a little over 100 years of Mohammad's death.

From the time of Mohammad until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the region was controlled by the Islamic world, except for brief periods of the Crusades.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the British took control of the region under a mandate of the League of Nations and arbitrarily drew up boundaries.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ninjamom, the fog of war is indeed very real. American troops have killed several British soldiers in Iraq. British soldiers have also had friendly fire incidents killing allied troops. It's not something to be brought up as an indication that the Americans for example are bad killing for our soldiers. The Israelis didn't kill the Americans on purpose no more than the Americans killed our soldiers on purpose.

I'm not sure why some folks see conspiracy on the part of Israel, in actions where, in similar circumstances, we acknowledge human error on our own behalf.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Those who claim there was a 'Nation of Palestine' are historically inaccurate.....the MOST accurate description of the situation between the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the founding of Israel is as a region without a nation......that was up for grabs by whoever could grab it.....and Israel grabbed it!

There was no autonomous state between the conquest of the Roman Empire and the founding of the state of Israel by anyone in that region, jew, palestinian or otherwise......Palestine was a never a country, and the 'Palestinian people' are a fabrication to give legitimacy to the Islamic Arab world's desire to push Israel in to the sea!

 

[Tez3]

This is drifting from the thread I know, but accusations have been made I'd like to refute.
http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html

Note that the Jewish side in the first document is not as clean as it could be but when mistakes etc are made it's put down here honestly what happened. there's no cover up. The Irgun were the people with the dirty hands who did the jobs others didn't want to but then it's not for those not involved to judge.
I think the reason so many people feel free to judge is that many religious people, not Jews or Muslims, feel the 'Holy Land' is theirs.

 

[elder999]

How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?snip!
My thanks and gratitude to all who support Israel, never think it's not appreciated.

Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-just discussing. Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; especially with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.

On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't help but "support Israel" (not necessarily "support" you, Irene-you're British :lol. In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about $2.5 billion of our tax dollars.

$2.5 billion dollars given to Israel-not loaned, last year. The bulk of which Israel was obligated to turn around and spend on U.S. hardware-from U.S.corporations, though Israel is permitted to spend a portion on their own, mostly excellent, domestic defense products, and is able to contract some of those U.S. defense firms they buy hardware from to use Israeli parts in the manufacture of some of those items.

There, I think that's the big brush picture of all the convolutions and pemutations of the billions that we spend in military aid to Israel. Okay, maybe not all, but the other details don't offer much...:lol:

 

[Tez3]

Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-just discussing. Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; even with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.

On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't help but "support Israel" (not you, Irene-you're British). In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about $2.5 billion of our tax dollars.

$2.5 billion dollars given to Israel-not loaned, last year. The bulk of which Israel was obligated to turn around and spend on U.S. hardware.......

I have dual nationality, an Israeli and a British passport so guess I'm somewhat concerned about things!

Elder I know you weren't judging, it was aimed more generally.
America has also given billions of dollars to the Palestinians over the years. $700million last year alone.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DE0DE1538F933A05752C1A96E958260

http://www.humanitariandevelopmentprogram.org/hds/info/news/news248.htm

http://thinkingpoints.thengia.org/2008/11/09/aid-to-palestinians-to-total-700m-this-year.aspx

 

[elder999]

Given the duplicity of Grand Mufti of Palestine (Arafat's uncle) with the REAL Third Reich, and his pressing of Hitler to come up with a final solution, the whole thing is rather ironic.

I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.

 

[Sukerkin]

Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-just discussing.

This is an important thing for everyone to remember, just in case posters begin to feel a little hot under the collar and start typing ill-considered things.

When we bring people together to talk on a topic, it is inevitable that there will be differences of opinion but it is also quite likely that we can learn things from each other too - for example, I had forgotten some things about the history of the creation of modern Israel and this thread has reminded me of them :tup:.

 

[Loki]

How nice you are all arguing over us. Deciding who's right, who's wrong, who'll get the land, who won't. Who are you to judge us?

The Jews never left Israel/Palestine you know, the whole lot didn't get up and wander off, many left yes but always there's been Jews in the Holy Land. did I say left? No, thats not correct even, they were driven out. And dear god didn't the world make us suffer for it.[.. etc.]

Thanks for that. It's very much true that Israel fights daily for what everyone else seems to take for granted. And even then, we're criticized for it. Asa Kasher, a highly respected Israeli philosopher and one of the people behind the IDF's ethical code, "Ruach Zahal" (Spirit of the IDF), was interviewed on the radio today and he said eloquently what every Israeli knows: There's no choice. It's very easy to call for a ceasefire, but we all know that anyone else in our place would have long ago just what Twin Fist has suggested and turned Gaza into a parking lot.

Oh, and I couldn't understand what you were saying because you were just repeating the senseless things you said before and not actually adding new content to your arguments. And like you, I'm not trying to be insulting, just stating the facts.

 

[elder999]

America has also given billions of dollars to the Palestinians over the years. $700million last year alone.

That's be less than a third of what we spent on Israel.None of which was spent on rockets, afaik. (Or food or plumbing, I'll bet...)

 

[Tez3]

I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.

Wars make evil bedfellows of people. America and Britain sold weapons to Saddam and the Afghans who are now using it against us, we do what we think is right at the time just to have them turn round and bite us in the rear. History judges harshly too.

 

[Tez3]

None of which was spent on rockets, afaik. (Or food or plumbing, I'll bet...)

Well you've got to ask with all that food and humantiarian aid America sent why are they in so much trouble now?

 

[Tez3]

What you have to bear in mind too is that in Israel not everyone supports the action in Gaza but they are allowed to say so. The actions of the Israeli government are criticised by the opposition and if its gets so that the majority of the people don't like it there will be an election. Different views and criticism of the government , it's policies and of the IDF is allowed. Sadly this is not true for the Palestinians.

 

[elder999]

Wars make evil bedfellows of people. .

Are you saying, then, that when the Zionists tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"

 

[Tez3]

Are you saying, then, that when the Zionists tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"

The 'Zionists' didn't, one group did. As with all Jewish/Isreali politics there is many views and many groups. Thats what I mean about tarring us all, well it was the Jews! Joseph Kennedy at the time he was American Ambassador to the court of St james also allied himself with the Nazis, admiring them greatly and saying Britain wouldn't last five minutes when the Germans invaded as they should. We don't blame all Americans for some having that point of view.

 

[elder999]

The 'Zionists' didn't, one group did. As with all Jewish/Isreali politics there is many views and many groups. Thats what I mean about tarring us all, well it was the Jews! Joseph Kennedy at the time he was American Ambassador to the court of St james also allied himself with the Nazis, admiring them greatly and saying Britain wouldn't last five minutes when the Germans invaded as they should. We don't blame all Americans for some having that point of view.

I didn't blame all of the "Zionists," just one group....that happened to be....Zionists. I didn't blame all the Jews-I even named the group, who were, after all-Jews-and Zionists, who tried to ally themselves with the Nazis.....:lol: (Sorry, but given the intervening history, it is a bit ludicrous-I'm sure it made sense at the time....)

Joe Kennedy's admiration of Germany was his political downfall.By your logic, though, one simply can't imply any complicity on the part of the Palestinians for the actions of the Mufti of Jerusalem, either.