MA vs Integrated Styles

[Koga-Shinobi]

I'm sure to most of you out there, this sounds like a stupid question, I apologise if that is the case, I'm a beginner in the MAs you see, so I'm trying to find out everything I can before I make a commitment to a style and regret it at a later stage.

At the moment, I've two interests (Ninjitsu and Aikido~strange pairing huh?)...recently I've just discovered a gym where they teach an integrated style (jujitsu, brazillian jujitsu, pankration) designed for self-defense. The head of the gym apparently has won numerous South African Championships in Jujitsu, has trained BJJ with Maetre Desche etc etc..so he seems a highly qualified teacher.

What he teaches are techniques designed purely for self-defense: effective and rapid moves. No mucking around with stuff you never use.

SOunds very cool and all that...but what concerns me is that it is not a "pure" MA, ie. no belts, no affiliation, no hierarchy as such. What strikes me in joining a dojo is the constant competition to be better, which unfortunately is represented by the color of your belt...an indication of status almost. Without having such a system, there's no real yard stick to mark your improvement, or how your progression is going, other than your teacher's comments.

What do you think? Am I being too Idealistic, or is Integrated Arts the way to go?

 

[Yari]

Just start, and if you don't like it - change...

Your the only one that knows what's best for you!

/Yari

 

[jkn75]

Go to the classes and watch. Which one seems interesting to you? Does one seem to excite you more than the other?

If you want a traditional martial art, go that route. Many people enjoy martial arts without the tradition of belts, forms, etc. Its a personal decision. Look at what your goals are for the martial arts because this will help shape your decision on what art/style you'll do.
:asian:

 

[Kempo Guy]

I recommend Rodney King's school in South Africa! Here's a link to his webpage: http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa/

Don't know if you are close, but if you are I'd give them a visit.

KG

 

[George Martin]

I think that ranking is probably one of the least important things that you can accomplish. The most important are whether you like the curriculum; you like and are satisfied with the instruction that your receive and you fit in with and like your classmates.
You are going to be receiving training a couple of times a week and if you dont like who you work with, you will rapidly lose interest.

 

[Abbax8]

Traditional Arts may offer a syllabus of techniques that you will be taught as you progress with time. There may be a standardized rank system that is followed. The idea being that as you master the basics, more difficult techniques are taught. This is how it may happen in a traditional school- but it is not guaranteed. What is taught is decided by the instructor. Sometimes the instructor does not know all the techniques or wishes to only teach their favorite set of moves. So called integrated arts may or mar not have a syllabus, and may or may not offer a broad spectrum of techniques. Again it is the instructor who decides what to teach. After watching a few classes, maybe even taking a week or two for free, you decide if you like the class. That will depend on what your seeking. If pure self defense- then there are many possiblities. If you are after the whole self development, physical fitness, self defense, competition, etc.- then ask what that club offers in the way of these areas. The instructor MUST be willing to talk to you. He or she should be approachable and open to your questions. They are teaching a MA, and most instructors love to teach. Be wary of 30 year old grandmasters. Also a bunch of trophies does really mean a whole lot except they can win competitions. Important only if competition is what you seek. Some of the competitors I've know are great technicians but can't teach a basic class for squat. Teaching is different than doing. A teacher should be able to demonstrate the technique- then help you perform it- 2 different skills there. Traditional or integrated is only one question you need answered- and really here on the boards you will get opinions- but the only one that matters is yours.

Peace
Dennis

 

[J-kid]

If they really have champs going to that class then what are you waiting for join that class , Most schools arnt good at all if you can join bjj because its a proven art.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

If they really have champs going to that class then what are you waiting for join that class , Most schools arnt good at all if you can join bjj because its a proven art.

Riiiiight.....

As has been pointed out before, BJJ is not necessarily any good in a street fight situation. Sure, it's great for one-on-one fights, or fights in a ring with rules, but is it good against 2 or more attackers? not really, cos you will instinctivly take one to the ground and get jumped on from behind.

Of course, this could be a BJJ school that focuses on self defence, but then they wouldn't have so many trophies...

I know my prejudices against this "art" are showing through now, but I'm really not a fan of BJJ and would always pick Jujitsu over it any day.


As for the question... Integrated arts....

I don't think anyone would be quallified to teach an intergrated art without obtaining good teaching quallifications in all of the combined arts, then spending years blending the styles together. Usually people teaching integrated styles have learned for a little while in certain systems, then want to teach and get money/respect without the experience of dedication to an art. Just watch out, the club might not be fantastic....

Of course, not all clubs are like this, just the ones I've seen from personal experience.

 

[7starmantis]

The belt system is the least of your worries I would think. I study a very traditional art, and we have no belt system at all, in fact, most Kung Fu systems use no belt system. You have to be able to motivate yourself or you will not excel in any MA, sport, activity, and alot of things in life. I think you should visit both and see which one feels right to you.



7sm

 

[Bod]

Lots of people think Judo is good for self defence and they are right.

Why then should BJJ not be good since they have the same techniques?

It all comes down to strategy and the way you train, which is influenced by the rules of competition.

It also depends on the teacher and the other pupils. This is why you should check out the place, and compare it with other places and revise your opinions as you go.

Every body is different and so it is wise to look for an art that works well for you.

 

[Aegis]

Traditional Judo may have been good for self defence, but most modern Judo looks nothing like that. I trained for years in Judo, and in my first year of traditional Jujitsu, I learned more self defence than in the whole of my time in Judo. Added to which, effective throwing in Jujitsu is nothing like the throwing in Judo.

Unless you learn a way of transition between Judo competetive technique and street fight style grappling/striking, it won't actually help much, except that you'll know how to lock up an opponent given the opportunity.

Maybe this is just what I and my fellow Judoka have found in our system, but from my experience I would say that Judo is over-rated as a self-defence.


However, within our system of Judo is a system of self defence, which uses some Judo, but mostly Goshin-ryu Jujitsu to apply what we already know to a street situation. This adds to our Judo training and creates an art that works... judo with a bit of striking, blocking, weapons defence.... Basically a simplified style of Jujitsu....

Don't get too offended by my comments, I'm only speaking from personal experience.

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

A silly question...one of my interests is jujitsu, but most of the places I check out seem to concentrate on grappling...following the "90% of all fights end up on the ground" theory. Honestly, I couldnt care abour grappling, it doesnt interest me in the least..sure, it's a handy art to know in a street-fight (maybe) but I'm not doing this just for self-defense.

Anyone here doinf jujutsu that can explain to me what the art is really about...I was always led to beleive it was a "standing up" art, incorporating throws, locks, pins and submissions.

 

[Aegis]

Yeah, broadly speaking, jujitsu is striking, throwing, submission, pressure points, etc, etc, but that doesn't describe the way they're applied

Some styles of jujitsu use strikes a lot, others floor their opponents and finish them off there. It all depends on the style and the instructor.

The style I'm in utilises throws, headlocks, wristlocks, armlocks to neutralise an opponent as quickly as possible, while leaving ourselves ready to deal with another attacker using a strike, or by putting the first opponent betwee ourselves and the second. In a one on one situation, we also learn how to use leglocks, ground holds and locks to keep them down until help arrives, or just break and leave.

Jujitsu is too vast an art to describe easily in a few lines of text, but basically the best advice is to go and look at a session. Better yet, join in and feel for yourself.

 

[Zujitsuka]

Good day Koga-Shinobi. You've got some great advice from our peer here in this forum. If you want strictly self defense, go with the gym. Concerning belts, as others have mentioned, that should be the least of your worries. It is better to be a white belt and fight like a black belt, rather than be a black belt and fight like a white belt. Also as one of the Gracie brothers (Brazilian JiuJitsu) says, "A belt only covers 2 inches of your ***. The rest is up to you."

In regards to your question about explaining Jujitsu, I'm going to piggy-back on what Bod said.

As a 'Stand-up Jujitsu' myself, our strategy is to hit hard and fast, apply a lock if it presents itself, and then throw your attacker violently to the ground. Once he/she is down, you can pin them or apply a joint lock to either dislocate a joint, or restrain them until the authorities come. You can also be on the lookout for other attackers.

In my Jujitsu school, we use a lot of Aiki type moves as well because you don't always want to hurt your opponent. What if it is your buddy who had too much to drink. You don't want to snap his elbow if he get a little out of hand, do you? Perhaps a come along hold will more than suffice.

If self-defense is your focus, grappling is nice to know and one should be part of part of one's training, but you don't want to be getting on the ground tussling with your opponent for a few reasons:

1) You'll be on concrete - not a mat

2) While you're tussling with your attacker, his buddies might jump in a do a rendition of the Riverdance on your head (TRUST ME ON THIS. I learned this from personal experience.)

3) It easier to make and escape (i.e. run) from the standing position rather than from the supine or prone position.

All the best to you my friend.

 

[bscastro]

Originally posted by Yari

Just start, and if you don't like it - change...

Your the only one that knows what's best for you!

This is basically it. I would check it out. If you are enjoying it, then keep going. People have many different reasons for doing the martial arts. You can tell by what people are posting as to what their reasons are.

I used to be very regimented about my training (e.g. I have to lift weights x times a week, run x times, do stickwork, etc.). Now I still have a basic schedule, but if I don't feel like doing something, for example if I feel like going mountain biking instead of running, or practicing footwork instead of kicking, then I just do what I feel like.

In any case, it's like that with choosing a school. It has to meet your needs, and you should enjoy it. Good luck.

Bryan

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

I hear you all, thanks dudes. Just wanted to clear up regarding my statement on belts. Like I understand that belts mean nothing, a white belt could kick a black belt *** in a street fight etc....I'm trying not to think of it that way....what I mean is that without that belt system, how do you get an indication of progress and growth. Personally, seeing an improvment as a result of grading and getting a new belt allows me to assess my growth, the speed of it...but also it gives you a new goal to aim for (ie. the next belt). If there're no belts, then how do you continuously motivate yourself, if you've got "nothing tangible" to aim for? I like having set goals to strive for. And for me, in that goal would always be the next belt.


Hope that's clear. Interesting to hear your views!

 

[Zujitsuka]

If you are improving, your instructor(s) and your training partners will tell you. Also, You'll know you're getting better when you're able to go longer and stronger in the ring, and when you're able to hang in there with more experienced grapplers before they tap you out or when you can tap them out.

Peace,