Quality and business

[Mark Lynn]

I want to apologize for the previous post, I wrote it over a period of several hours when on breaks and lunch at work and it should have had multiple quotes of shesula's for points I tried to address and instead it just ran together. Oh well I tried.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Jason

I think you are right on, there is no reason why shesula should water things down. I think you gave some good insight into looking at the demographics, and seeing what programs could make money and offering them. Offering good customer service, and a different or better product than your competitors doesn't mean compromising quality in means you need to improve your product.

 

[jks9199]

I want to apologize for the previous post, I wrote it over a period of several hours when on breaks and lunch at work and it should have had multiple quotes of shesula's for points I tried to address and instead it just ran together. Oh well I tried.

I've tried to go through and fix it for you. All that happened is that you missed the beginning bracket that tells vBulletin "this is a command, not a word". In other words, the format should have been [command]. Using this reply, to show the quote part, I'll use a squiggly bracket instead so you can see the formating:
{QUOTE=The Boar Man;1509946}I want to apologize for the previous post, I wrote it over a period of several hours when on breaks and lunch at work and it should have had multiple quotes of shesula's for points I tried to address and instead it just ran together. Oh well I tried.{/QUOTE}

As a side note -- Shesulsa is incredibly aware of dealing with and teaching autistic students, and almost certainly someone I would actually recommend for that to people in the area.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I want to know how shesulsa feels as it applies to the question I asked. Yes it was blunt, and yes it was the worst case scenario, but that is a possibility. IF she can deal with that then
go with the business models being suggested. If she can’t then she will be teaching a more students but feeling very guilty and rather miserable while doing it

You have a valid point here but...... Not all of the business models suggested requires her to water down her system or to sacrifice quality in order to keep the lights on at her school. Jason and I both pointed out different options and we both stressed she didn't need to sacrifice quality.

This is what I don't get why does everyone think that she needs to water it down, to be successful? As to your question how would you feel if your daughter or a classmate needed to use their martial art to defend themselves and failed? I imagine you would feel terrible just like the instructor or shesula would if it was one of her students, or I would if it was one of mine, or any instructor on this board for that matter. It is a possibility for everyone here to have a student that gets mugged or hurt, or bullied etc. etc. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU FAILED THEM, OR IT IS YOUR FAULT.

My daughter spent a year at a TKD school that was basically playtime and after a year she had a yellow stripe running through the center of her belt and she was no better off as far as
self-defense went than she was when she started. Sher actually got a whole lot more out of Gymnastics that would appliy to MA than TKD gave her. Now she has been in Aikido for 3 months and they are not playing and they are not beating on the kids either, but it is serious and they are learning real MA. Granted it is not the adult class but you cannot train young kids with adults unless you want a law suit or two but she is gaining more skill and has gained more confidence in 3 months of Aikido than she did in one year of TKD. And in 3 months at TKD she had a colored belt already and there is not even a belt discussion at this Aikido school. But then the sensei apparently decided a long time ago the quality matter more to him then quantity because he has considerably fewer students, both child and adult, than the tkd school bt the few he has are much more skilled. capable and serious about thier art than any of the hundreds of students at the TKD school.

I'm sorry but this example sounds to me like you were duped for a year. Surely you aren't saying that all TKD schools suck and that only aikido schools provide confidence or at least the ones that don't talk about belts.

First off how old is your daughter now as to when she was taking the TKD? This can make a difference if there was a long span of time between arts. Secondly it's not the belts, nor the color of the belts that define a system, or even a business system, or the school for that matter. From the sounds of it the school was geared towards being a play time, easy promotion etc. etc. Not all TKD schools are like that and nothing says the shesula needs to follow that example.

I'd be glad that you found a school with a like minded sensei who believes in having quality instruction and who has a few students so your daughter can get a good education rather than try and run down all TKD schools who teach kids.

My wife told me a long time ago that I would never make any money teaching martial arts in America because I am too serious, and she is right, so take this all for what it is worth. However I no longer have anything against those that teach what they have to keep there doors open and put food on the table…it is just not something I could do as it applies to martial arts.

What this sounds like a cop out. What do you mean you "no longer have anything against those that teach what they have to keep their doors open and put food on the table"? You just went and set up a scenario where you asked a question implying that in order for shesula to keep the doors open she would be possibly putting her students in jeopardy and could she live with that? Then you trash TKD schools that teach kids, and promote aikido and the benefits of having small classes with a sensei that chooses quality over quantity. Sounds like to me you do.

Why not instead try and post the positive things your daughter's sensei does to help you feel she is getting the best education possible. Is it the curriculum? Does he stay in touch with the parents? Does he offer positive reinforcement to you daughter or is it the manner in which he teaches. Could it be more than just the art and small classes?

My wife has told me too she doesn't want me to quit my job to teach full time, I hear the same thing "You never make any money" cause I'm to strict and the way my sensei brought me up yada yada yada. It's B.S. really. I'd much rather do what I like to do and have a positive impact on my students lives than sit around and inspect parts all day. Frankly if someone else is trying to stay open as a business teaching what they enjoying doing, I'll try and help out however I can, at least they are asking for help instead of venting.

 

[Mark Lynn]

JKS

Thanks for your help

"As a side note -- Shesulsa is incredibly aware of dealing with and teaching autistic students, and almost certainly someone I would actually recommend for that to people in the area."

I was not aware of that, thanks for letting me know. I meant no disrespect and I commend her for doing that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Boar Man

I am beginning to wonder why people on MT these days tend to read much more into what I post than what is actually there, likely it is me and I am not clear.

No offense intended but I really don’t much care about anything in your post. You are acussing me of things I never said you are arguing against points I was not making and you know nothing about my MA background.

All I want to know is how she feels about it.. that is all… don’t want to discuss it or argue about it or take this any further for that matter

But I will speak to this

First off how old is your daughter now as to when she was taking the TKD?.

My daughter’s age is none of your business then or now.

And this

I'd be glad that you found a school with a like minded sensei who believes in having quality instruction and who has a few students so your daughter can get a good education rather than try and run down all TKD schools who teach kids.

Excuse me… jumping to a bit of a conclusion there aren’t you. Please, I dare you to point out anywhere in my previous post to any other post I have ever made on MT that run down all TKD schools that teach kids.

And if it helps you I have been in MA for almost 40 years and way back in the mid 70s I was TKD, damn good school too…taught kids as well…technically I was one at the time and I learned a lot, got hurt alot too...would not want my childern to train that way either….but school still exists….teacher has schools all over the place…even in Korea…

Have a nice day

 

[The Last Legionary]

And the award for over reacting and flying off the handle goes to.....

 

[shesulsa]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

@Kwan Jang: I'm not sure what you mean by a "top-heavy curriculum." I'm also wondering exactly what you mean when you speak of syntax in teaching. Could you clarify, please? Thank you in advance!

@Xue Sheng: Please read this with a gentle voice and understand this is a simple reality - no attitude intended here. How would I feel if one of my "lite" students got their butt kicked? The same as I would feel if one of my hardcore students got their butt kicked. The same way I feel when a cop gets shot in the line of duty. Horrible. We are talking about prevention - there is never any guarantee for any of us, I don't care how bad-*** a person is. This is an ongoing discussion with all students that they must work with sincerity and focus as there will always be someone bigger, faster, stronger that could take them ... so reducing that margin is better than not. I think I owe my students and their families this truth. It's not a popular one ... but it IS a truth and I stand by it.

@Jasonbrinn - what an incredible offer! I'll call you this week!

@Boar man - The consultant/friend is a 2nd degree in TKD and an MBA in marketing and business strategy. He does understand the business, but he's a little ignorant in quality concerns that I have. He has asked me a few things that make me want to bang my head on the table, like "why don't you just call what you do Tae Kwon Do? Nobody's really going to know the difference," and "why don't you just make up your own martial art and name it what you want to?" Oi.

I'm the only instructor in my school and I am always clean, neat and well-groomed. My mats are vacuumed and sanitized after each use. My facility is not the greatest but it is all I can afford - the basement of a historical building. I've covered the crumbling stone wall and footings, added upholstered benches, my equipment is in good shape and clean and there is enough for everyone - I only have a handful of students, after all. I have an air sanitizer and deodorizer so it doesn't smell like a gym. We have a sanitation station where everyone must sanitize their bare skin before and after techniques and grappling or if they sneeze or cough, etcetera.

The purpose of long, exhausting tests is in part a preparation for the VERY long and VERY exhausting black belt test. Essentially I try to test the students mentally and physically, giving them surprise requests and asking them to do things they have not attempted in class. I think there can be value in exposure to this pressure ... but I do think it gets long and boring for spectators. It is less of a showcase and more of a test.

My student that I suspect has asperger's is more of a challenge mainly because the parents are in denial. They coddle him, they only JUST started pursuing occupational therapy for him to address his sensory needs, they do not adequately support his need for practice, he only rarely attends and it seems to be more of a babysitting situation than something to actually do him good. My other autistic student is well supported by his father who insists he practice and encourages him constantly. Makes all the difference in the world.

I'm not so sure there is much of a difference between step up programs and step down programs except which end you're approaching from.

Perhaps I haven't conveyed the heaviness of the curriculum. Six categories in each rank - Basic combinations (usually 8), short form (1), long form (1), kicking combination (3), progressive breakfalls (1 or 2) and techniques (between 10 and 50). Each technique has to have a follow-up exhibiting either a disabling application, a contain-and-control application or a termination - the student must come up with this from their knowledge base and experience, looking for opportunity and with flow. Sparring and judo are included and weapons familiarization as well. Sulsa camp, which is conducted by the head of the Kwan, must be attended at least once to qualify for black belt.

I already have an abbreviated curriculum for challenged persons and for children. This is the curriculum I'm thinking of making standard.

I also don't test regularly nor arbitrarily ... meaning I know there are schools that hold a grading every two months and everyone passes no matter how they perform. I have a HUGE problem with this. So we have the target of quarterly tests. If a student isn't ready at that time but doesn't need 3 months to get there, I'll schedule an additional test date for them.

 

[Mark Lynn]

@Boar man - The consultant/friend is a 2nd degree in TKD and an MBA in marketing and business strategy. He does understand the business, but he's a little ignorant in quality concerns that I have. He has asked me a few things that make me want to bang my head on the table, like "why don't you just call what you do Tae Kwon Do? Nobody's really going to know the difference," and "why don't you just make up your own martial art and name it what you want to?" Oi.

OK I mean no disrespect here, but he's probably right nobody but "we" martial artists care about what our lineage is, what our name of our style is, who the head of the kwan is etc. etc. The average mother or father looking for a place for their child to learn martial arts don't care really, their eyes glaze over. Also I take it you have a lot more time in the martial arts than he has and your quality is better so you do care. But from a business point of view his point could be valid and something to consider.

I'm the only instructor in my school and I am always clean, neat and well-groomed. My mats are vacuumed and sanitized after each use. My facility is not the greatest but it is all I can afford - the basement of a historical building. I've covered the crumbling stone wall and footings, added upholstered benches, my equipment is in good shape and clean and there is enough for everyone - I only have a handful of students, after all. I have an air sanitizer and deodorizer so it doesn't smell like a gym. We have a sanitation station where everyone must sanitize their bare skin before and after techniques and grappling or if they sneeze or cough, etcetera.

I was speaking in general terms when I commented on the school condition as something to look at, not meaning your school personally so please take no offense. I too am the only instructor for my school (occasionally I have someone sub for a class) so I know how exhausting it can be. From the sounds of it you are making the most of your situation and have some good systems in place for keeping the place clean and sanitized.

The purpose of long, exhausting tests is in part a preparation for the VERY long and VERY exhausting black belt test. Essentially I try to test the students mentally and physically, giving them surprise requests and asking them to do things they have not attempted in class. I think there can be value in exposure to this pressure ... but I do think it gets long and boring for spectators. It is less of a showcase and more of a test.

I understand this, but you might consider rethinking it some, not much but some. For my classes I believe the student earns his rank in class not on the test, therefore if they aren't ready for the rank they don't test. Leading up to Black Belt then yes they will have a very hard and long test I get that. As to exposure to the pressure I agree with you but I tend to tone it down in that the students will at beginning levels get thrown curve balls by having them do their katas facing different directions or things they aren't use to but it isn't the bulk or even a large part of the exam. It is just enough to make them figure it out on the fly in the middle of a test in front of people. Last kids test I had the students had to free spar with me and one of my senior students with no gear (since several of the students forgot their gear, it was a beginners test with three people testing for their first intermediate rank) which they had never done before.

For kids this can be stressful and ultimately I want to make sure they won't quit or give up or give in to the fear of doing something different and failing. So this can still be accomplished on the test without making things to long or boring to the spectators or students. Just a thought.

My student that I suspect has asperger's is more of a challenge mainly because the parents are in denial. They coddle him, they only JUST started pursuing occupational therapy for him to address his sensory needs, they do not adequately support his need for practice, he only rarely attends and it seems to be more of a babysitting situation than something to actually do him good. My other autistic student is well supported by his father who insists he practice and encourages him constantly. Makes all the difference in the world.

I totally agree here. You must have family support. Have you talked with the family about this with the child that needs more practice about ways they could help him?

I'm not so sure there is much of a difference between step up programs and step down programs except which end you're approaching from.

Here I disagree. I teach three programs TKD, Kobudo, and Modern Arnis. Kobudo is not a part of traditional TKD they didn't study the Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Nunchaku, etc. etc. so if I wanted to have a up grade program that could be part of it. Arnis is a martial art form the Philippines it has nothing to do with TKD so if a student wanted to cross train in the FMA that could be an upgrade. Why do I need to charge a student another full price of tuition if they want to learn one or two of the arts? If you charge them say 1/4 the price or 1/2 of the price it is an upgrade essentially (I'm looking at this from a business perspective). This why I also can keep the programs separate instead of blending everything together and I keep better quality control.

For instance if I want to hold out the kobudo training till students are 13 years old or are of a certain rank than I can because it is not integrated into part of the system where rank dictates what is learned. Likewise as a student gets older and higher in rank if they want to get deeper into weapons based training they can upgrade into the arnis training while they still pursue higher levels of the TKD training.

However stepping down would be removing things from your art that were there to begin with and watering down the instruction.

Perhaps I haven't conveyed the heaviness of the curriculum. Six categories in each rank - Basic combinations (usually 8), short form (1), long form (1), kicking combination (3), progressive breakfalls (1 or 2) and techniques (between 10 and 50). Each technique has to have a follow-up exhibiting either a disabling application, a contain-and-control application or a termination - the student must come up with this from their knowledge base and experience, looking for opportunity and with flow. Sparring and judo are included and weapons familiarization as well. Sulsa camp, which is conducted by the head of the Kwan, must be attended at least once to qualify for black belt.

I already have an abbreviated curriculum for challenged persons and for children. This is the curriculum I'm thinking of making standard.

Is your art dictated by your association (are you part of a larger organization which has set up your curriculum, or have you made your curriculum?) "head of the kwan"? I ask because if you have set things up then you can always rearrange things, if the organization has set things up then it's much harder to tweak but I would think there is still that possibility of maybe tweaking it some.

Is judo part of the original style or something you have added? Is it just a few throws, locking and control techniques or actual Judo type instruction? How in depth do you go for weapons instruction, is it just familiarization "this is a stick, this hurts, you hold it like this" or is it actually using it and going into depth like you would in the FMAs or Kobudo type training?

For my TKD students they learn to defend empty hand vs weapon against basic attacks. The defenses are largely based on the Modern Arnis/combatives but they don't go into a huge amount of depth of locking control or take downs like I do in the FMA class. However they are taught to defend, disarm, disable or take the person down to the ground so they can get away. That is the focus and it is strictly based on the goal of self defense, not teaching them to fight with weapons.

This gets back to the upgrade concept, if grappling isn't something that was part of the original art but was added in to make it better, then you might want to format it in such a way that it can be an upgrade than only the people who are interested in learning it will pay for. Same thing for the weapons training. I don't see it as down grading or with holding from my students. Currently though the Kobudo training is part of my TKD students training, however if I was setting up a stand alone martial arts school (I teach at a Rec. Center) then I wouldn't have a problem with making it a stand a lone upgrade program. I don't have to now, but to keep my doors open and to generate income why not?

I also don't test regularly nor arbitrarily ... meaning I know there are schools that hold a grading every two months and everyone passes no matter how they perform. I have a HUGE problem with this. So we have the target of quarterly tests. If a student isn't ready at that time but doesn't need 3 months to get there, I'll schedule an additional test date for them.

This is another type of business model, using the belt tests as a way to generate income. I too have a HUGE problem with this. However I won't even have the students get out there to test if they are going to fail because they aren't ready. So in my case everyone passes, but they test for intermediate and advanced ranks up to 1st brown about every four to six months (it gets longer in between the advanced degrees) and then a year between 1st brown and 1st black. 1st black takes aprox 4-5 years to earn in my system. I'm the same way when it comes to scheduling a another exam for beginning students, but for intermediate students they wait for the next test (semi annual) unless there is a group prior to the larger test that will be testing and I'll tack them on. My advanced ranks brown belts just wait for the next semi annual exam.

I still come back to your comment here "already have an abbreviated curriculum for challenged persons and for children. This is the curriculum I'm thinking of making standard".

Not knowing what your curriculum is this can be a good thing or a bad thing. From the sounds of your description here "Perhaps I haven't conveyed the heaviness of the curriculum. Six categories in each rank - Basic combinations (usually 8), short form (1), long form (1), kicking combination (3), progressive breakfalls (1 or 2) and techniques (between 10 and 50). Each technique has to have a follow-up exhibiting either a disabling application, a contain-and-control application or a termination - the student must come up with this from their knowledge base and experience, looking for opportunity and with flow." This sounds like a very adult orienated curriculum. However does the normal person need to know various disabling applications, terminations, or contain and control techniques for each technique(?) How about put them down on the ground and run!!!! I can see police officers, military, needing to know contain and control techniques, or terminations but I don't teach much of this for my TKD students. It's like the grappling arm bars and chokes if I'm not competing in these type of events (Judo, BJJ contests) why teach it to my students much less make it part of a curriculum than I'm testing them on, if it is an add on to the parent art.

Your system could be to heavy. Just a thought.

 

[Mark Lynn]

The Boar Man

I am beginning to wonder why people on MT these days tend to read much more into what I post than what is actually there, likely it is me and I am not clear.

Perhaps you are not clear, and perhaps you were clear and I misunderstood, no problem.

No offense intended but I really don’t much care about anything in your post. You are acussing me of things I never said you are arguing against points I was not making and you know nothing about my MA background.

All I want to know is how she feels about it.. that is all… don’t want to discuss it or argue about it or take this any further for that matter

No offense taken.

But I will speak to this

My daughter’s age is none of your business then or now.

You are right your daughter's age isn't any of my business. Perhaps I was unclear with the intent of the question. I meant only that perhaps there was a difference in what she is learning know vs. then due to her age. I wasn't sure of the progression of your point in that she spent a year in TKD, but she learned more that related to SD in gymnastics and now she is learning Aikido. But I surely wasn't really inquiring about her age, sorry for the question.

And this

Excuse me… jumping to a bit of a conclusion there aren’t you. Please, I dare you to point out anywhere in my previous post to any other post I have ever made on MT that run down all TKD schools that teach kids.

When you make a generalized statement such as "My daughter spent a year at a TKD school that was basically playtime and after a year she had a yellow stripe running through the center of her belt and she was no better off as far as self-defense went than she was when she started. Sher actually got a whole lot more out of Gymnastics that would appliy to MA than TKD gave her. Now she has been in Aikido for 3 months and they are not playing and they are not beating on the kids either, but it is serious and they are learning real MA."

Or "Granted it is not the adult class but you cannot train young kids with adults unless you want a law suit or two but she is gaining more skill and has gained more confidence in 3 months of Aikido than she did in one year of TKD. And in 3 months at TKD she had a colored belt already and there is not even a belt discussion at this Aikido school. But then the sensei apparently decided a long time ago the quality matter more to him then quantity because he has considerably fewer students, both child and adult, than the tkd school bt the few he has are much more skilled. capable and serious about thier art than any of the hundreds of students at the TKD school.

Considering your question to shesula about how would she feel "If one of your students....", it appeared (to me) you were running down programs in TKD that taught kids. Considering this thread is about business and quality I misunderstood you. Since it seemed you were trashing the TKD school and TKD in general compared to Aikido. It is no big deal, I misunderstood you.

And if it helps you I have been in MA for almost 40 years and way back in the mid 70s I was TKD, damn good school too…taught kids as well…technically I was one at the time and I learned a lot, got hurt alot too...would not want my childern to train that way either….but school still exists….teacher has schools all over the place…even in Korea…

Have a nice day

Great, I'm glad you have been in the arts a long time, I've been in them less time than you (31 years). Your my senior. Perhaps I misunderstood your post in that you were only relating your experience to one particular TKD school that taught kids. My mistake.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Xue Sheng

Sorry my last comment I meant that I misunderstood your post, Not Perhaps I misunderstood. I apologize.

 

[Kwan Jang]

To awnser Shesulsa's question addressed to me, when I was talking about the syntax of the curriculum, I'm referring to the order and arrangement of the material you teach. In regards to many schools being top heavy in their curriculum, I'm talking about how many schoos overwhelm many beginners with SO much material in the early phases of training, then have so little later on that many are either bored or (IMO often rightfully so) complain that they are no longer learning anything past a certain point. Instructors will often blame it on tradition, when in reality it's just poor curriculum and class planning. How many schools have advanced underbelts (brown or red level) have very little new material and then only a new form between dan grades? Yet, they expected them to learn everything under the sun as a beginner? Much of it more "filler" than anything else. There are several schools in my area that keep the students busy up to green belt (about the time their students upgrade to Black Belt Club) and after that, there is very little more that they teach them and tell the students that they should have "the discipline to master the material they have been givern". I am all into repetition as the mother of skill (BTW, a good instructor should disguise much of the reps) and that mastery is the goal..., but this can be a cop out for not taking your students farther, too.

With better planning of the curriculum, beginners could focus in on getting better at the basics and core of their system's material and keep learning consistantly throughout their dan grades (for the systems that use a belt ranking system). This would lead to better retention and you can't teach them if they are not there. Not only does this mean your business will be more successful, but you have served your students better and given them far more of the value that they came to you for. Notice that I am talking about presenting the material you teach in a more reasoned and better way rather than watering it down (before someone takes this off topic with that accusation). No matter how good the material or system you teach is, it matters little to the students if they aren't catching what you are pitching.

 

[Brian King]

Sorry your school is having a hard time. No matter what you decide to do, no matter what happens with the school just try to remember everything happens for a reason and success with a school is no guarantee of personal or professional success, nor is personal or professional success a guarantee of a schools success.

One thing that might help is to try to change or clarify the perspective on what is success is to you. It might mean scaling back the school to a rented space, a garage or a park or it might mean changing the way you teach. One thing that has helped many through tough times is to focus on the 'small' successes. You know, for example those ones were you make a positive difference in a persons life or their relationships. Where a skill set or coping tactic helps someone deal with life.

Perhaps you will figure out what is needed to make your school successful and bountiful, I hope so. But, the trick I think is to figure out what that success and bounty looks like for yourself then drive on to meet that, even if it might mean pulling back a bit.

One other thing that happens to a lot of business owners when things get tough is that they get extremely focused on the business at the expense of their family. This is almost always an extremely costly error that has ruined many relationships. As things get tougher make sure to take some extra time to forget the business and give to your family. That giving recharges the warrior for the fighting ahead.

Regards
Brian Kign

 

[Makalakumu]

Wow, reading this thread has given me a lot of insight into my own business. Mahalo.

I have two sets of curriculum. The first set is designed to catapult students into the second set. Essentially, I see the first set as being developmentally appropriate for children, giving them key skills that will help them be successful, should they decide to continue training when they are older. The hard part (and good part) I have is that the only thing that I have that draws students from the first set to the second set is the strength of my relationship with the student...and parents.

I've had varying level of success with this. Out of a class of ten students who are on the developmental cusp, one or two will decide to move on after a year, three or four more will stick with the children's curriculum, and the rest will quit and move on to other studies.

The second set of curriculum is extensive and difficult, probably too difficult up front, perhaps presenting too large of a hurdle, but I also know that the payoff for completing the first couple of ranks in the second set lead to some high quality and effective training. I just tested two students for late colored belts and feel very proud of how these guys handle themselves on the mat. If they get to black belt, they'll be excellent! Yet, that first rank past the Kid's curriculum is intimidating. They really grind it out.

Anyway, mahalo again to the posters in this thread. You've given me much to think about.

 

[shesulsa]

OK I mean no disrespect here, but he's probably right nobody but "we" martial artists care about what our lineage is, what our name of our style is, who the head of the kwan is etc. etc. The average mother or father looking for a place for their child to learn martial arts don't care really, their eyes glaze over. Also I take it you have a lot more time in the martial arts than he has and your quality is better so you do care. But from a business point of view his point could be valid and something to consider.

I agree - it is very clear that style really only sells for experienced martial artists. In three years of business ... only one person has ever asked to see my credentials.

I was speaking in general terms when I commented on the school condition as something to look at, not meaning your school personally so please take no offense. I too am the only instructor for my school (occasionally I have someone sub for a class) so I know how exhausting it can be. From the sounds of it you are making the most of your situation and have some good systems in place for keeping the place clean and sanitized.

No disrespect nor offense taken at all. I do think I'm doing all that I can do with the space. I will have to make do with it for some time.

I understand this, but you might consider rethinking it some, not much but some. For my classes I believe the student earns his rank in class not on the test, therefore if they aren't ready for the rank they don't test. Leading up to Black Belt then yes they will have a very hard and long test I get that. As to exposure to the pressure I agree with you but I tend to tone it down in that the students will at beginning levels get thrown curve balls by having them do their katas facing different directions or things they aren't use to but it isn't the bulk or even a large part of the exam. It is just enough to make them figure it out on the fly in the middle of a test in front of people. Last kids test I had the students had to free spar with me and one of my senior students with no gear (since several of the students forgot their gear, it was a beginners test with three people testing for their first intermediate rank) which they had never done before.

For kids this can be stressful and ultimately I want to make sure they won't quit or give up or give in to the fear of doing something different and failing. So this can still be accomplished on the test without making things to long or boring to the spectators or students. Just a thought.

Earlier ranks and children get a bit of a break. Experienced martial artists who come to train with me do not. I have a bujinkan 1st dan and I put him through the wringer. And my son who has been doing this since he was 5. He's 13 now (took a couple of breaks). I put him through the wringer too - but they want it. The kids with nerves and the itty bitty kids get just a straight test. Everyone's stress level is different, so that's where I try to operate from on an individual basis.

I totally agree here. You must have family support. Have you talked with the family about this with the child that needs more practice about ways they could help him?

I've hinted at some things that could help. This really isn't something that someone like me should be sitting them down and saying, "I think your child has Asperger's" or "have you thought about having him evaluated" - I know some are comfortable with doing this. The interesting thing is this child's parents are both in the medical field - one is a doctor and the other a nurse. I knew something would be revealed at some point and now his sensory issues are such that he refuses to grapple, so it is something they will soon have to face, most likely.

I did have a point where we planned for him to train three times per week to meet the deadline for a test - I was skeptical that he was going to be able to step it up as not just his sensory challenges but also his personality are not helpful along these lines. He did FABULOUSLY and I gushed about it to his parents. He was very content and felt more confident, stronger, his fitness level and ability level improved dramatically ... and then ... they went on vacation, came back and took it down to once per week after the test. So the inconsistency has not served him well at all and I'm extremely disappointed in these parents ... but what can I really do? When I say it sucks for him, I mean the facts that his parents are not helping him nor recognizing his deficits along with his marked talents and the blase attitude towards practicing all adds up to shortchanging him, IMVHO. Thus, also IMVHO, I think it sucks for him.

Here I disagree. I teach three programs TKD, Kobudo, and Modern Arnis. Kobudo is not a part of traditional TKD they didn't study the Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Nunchaku, etc. etc. so if I wanted to have a up grade program that could be part of it. Arnis is a martial art form the Philippines it has nothing to do with TKD so if a student wanted to cross train in the FMA that could be an upgrade. Why do I need to charge a student another full price of tuition if they want to learn one or two of the arts? If you charge them say 1/4 the price or 1/2 of the price it is an upgrade essentially (I'm looking at this from a business perspective). This why I also can keep the programs separate instead of blending everything together and I keep better quality control.

But ... these things are *part* of the art. If I separate them and turn it into an upgrade program, I will be watering down what I already have only to enrichen it later and if I call these things separate arts I am compelled to hold some rank in each of these arts to offer them. With sincere respect, I don't feel any more comfortable splitting off the knife work and calling it "Pekiti Tersia" and charging extra for it than I do calling this art "Tae Kwon Do."

For instance if I want to hold out the kobudo training till students are 13 years old or are of a certain rank than I can because it is not integrated into part of the system where rank dictates what is learned. Likewise as a student gets older and higher in rank if they want to get deeper into weapons based training they can upgrade into the arnis training while they still pursue higher levels of the TKD training.

In the natural progression of Pung Wol Do, this is the practice also, but we don't call these things anything else but Pung Wol Do.

However stepping down would be removing things from your art that were there to begin with and watering down the instruction.

:asian:

Is your art dictated by your association (are you part of a larger organization which has set up your curriculum, or have you made your curriculum?) "head of the kwan"? I ask because if you have set things up then you can always rearrange things, if the organization has set things up then it's much harder to tweak but I would think there is still that possibility of maybe tweaking it some.

My understanding is the Pung Wol Kwan is currently assembling the curriculum for the higher ranks and I wish to follow that curriculum as following the WHRDA curriculum could get me in trouble. I'm sure Master Corona would have little problem with my tweaking it some - most especially for children.

Is judo part of the original style or something you have added? Is it just a few throws, locking and control techniques or actual Judo type instruction?

A fair amount of judo is incorporated into the syllabus. Joint lock throws and judo throws are a significant part of the curriculum.

How in depth do you go for weapons instruction, is it just familiarization "this is a stick, this hurts, you hold it like this" or is it actually using it and going into depth like you would in the FMAs or Kobudo type training?

Mostly familiarization right now with the exception of the techniques I know. My teacher did not have us practice with sticks much - nowhere near as much as I would like. This is an area where I am definitely compelled to further my own studies and, until then, refer out for further training.

For my TKD students they learn to defend empty hand vs weapon against basic attacks. The defenses are largely based on the Modern Arnis/combatives but they don't go into a huge amount of depth of locking control or take downs like I do in the FMA class. However they are taught to defend, disarm, disable or take the person down to the ground so they can get away. That is the focus and it is strictly based on the goal of self defense, not teaching them to fight with weapons.

We are taught both.

This gets back to the upgrade concept, if grappling isn't something that was part of the original art but was added in to make it better, then you might want to format it in such a way that it can be an upgrade than only the people who are interested in learning it will pay for. Same thing for the weapons training. I don't see it as down grading or with holding from my students. Currently though the Kobudo training is part of my TKD students training, however if I was setting up a stand alone martial arts school (I teach at a Rec. Center) then I wouldn't have a problem with making it a stand a lone upgrade program. I don't have to now, but to keep my doors open and to generate income why not?

:asian:

This is another type of business model, using the belt tests as a way to generate income. I too have a HUGE problem with this. However I won't even have the students get out there to test if they are going to fail because they aren't ready. So in my case everyone passes, but they test for intermediate and advanced ranks up to 1st brown about every four to six months (it gets longer in between the advanced degrees) and then a year between 1st brown and 1st black. 1st black takes aprox 4-5 years to earn in my system. I'm the same way when it comes to scheduling a another exam for beginning students, but for intermediate students they wait for the next test (semi annual) unless there is a group prior to the larger test that will be testing and I'll tack them on. My advanced ranks brown belts just wait for the next semi annual exam.

I, too, won't even schedule a test for someone who isn't ready to move on and the advanced ranks have longer time requirements as well.

I still come back to your comment here "already have an abbreviated curriculum for challenged persons and for children. This is the curriculum I'm thinking of making standard".

Not knowing what your curriculum is this can be a good thing or a bad thing. From the sounds of your description here "Perhaps I haven't conveyed the heaviness of the curriculum. Six categories in each rank - Basic combinations (usually 8), short form (1), long form (1), kicking combination (3), progressive breakfalls (1 or 2) and techniques (between 10 and 50). Each technique has to have a follow-up exhibiting either a disabling application, a contain-and-control application or a termination - the student must come up with this from their knowledge base and experience, looking for opportunity and with flow." This sounds like a very adult orienated curriculum. However does the normal person need to know various disabling applications, terminations, or contain and control techniques for each technique(?)

I think teaching a person that a technique is over with a punch to the face and a kick to the knee is a mistake. Children are not required to learn follow-ups until they're 13 and those in the abbreviated program also do not. Everyone else needs to know how to END THE FIGHT. For self-defense I think this is crucial.

How about put them down on the ground and run!!!!

This is an acceptable follow up!

I can see police officers, military, needing to know contain and control techniques, or terminations but I don't teach much of this for my TKD students.

I'd like for any black belt I might turn out to be able to teach military and law enforcement as well as Joe Plumber.

It's like the grappling arm bars and chokes if I'm not competing in these type of events (Judo, BJJ contests) why teach it to my students much less make it part of a curriculum than I'm testing them on, if it is an add on to the parent art.

With all due respect, I still think *some* ground game, mainly basic principles of being able to defend and control the attack in that situation is important - especially with how available BJJ and MMA training is right now.

Your system could be to heavy. Just a thought.

That was a lot of discussion to get around to agreeing with me! :lol: Seriously, I appreciate everything you have already put into this discussion. It's SO helpful to bounce this off of another KMAist who has an idea of what I'm talking about. Thank you!

 

[Mark Lynn]

Earlier ranks and children get a bit of a break. Experienced martial artists who come to train with me do not. I have a bujinkan 1st dan and I put him through the wringer. And my son who has been doing this since he was 5. He's 13 now (took a couple of breaks). I put him through the wringer too - but they want it. The kids with nerves and the itty bitty kids get just a straight test. Everyone's stress level is different, so that's where I try to operate from on an individual basis.

Ok it does seem like we are on the same page here, if I had a 1st dan testing for any rank he would be put through the wringer as well.

I've hinted at some things that could help. This really isn't something that someone like me should be sitting them down and saying, "I think your child has Asperger's" or "have you thought about having him evaluated" - I know some are comfortable with doing this. The interesting thing is this child's parents are both in the medical field - one is a doctor and the other a nurse. I knew something would be revealed at some point and now his sensory issues are such that he refuses to grapple, so it is something they will soon have to face, most likely.

Sorry, when you posted that he had "Asperger's" I thought that the parents had confirmed this with you and had talked to you about it. It is a very hard spot you are in and I sympathize with you. I too would not feel comfortable making that call however..... it might still need to be done if he is being disruptive. Another way though might be to talk with the parents about the child refusing to grapple, ask them how he is at home? Does he grapple with Dad? His brother? Friends? While it might be play wrestling if he does, than he might be uncomfortable with grappling with others and that is something as the instructor I believe you need to deal with. Are you going to accommodate his special needs or not?

Frankly I don't see the need for grappling if it is going to run off the student? Taking it at face value that he has special needs I believe he could make up that part of the curriculum another way. I had a student who had issues turning in different directions, it wasn't for lack of trying his parents worked dilligently with him out side of class, I worked with him in class, senior students worked with him. It took forever to learn simple basc patterns because he had to turn different directions. Anyway I finally decided I would teach a beginner kid Nahanchi (Chulgi) which I hadn't even taught my senior students yet. He got that down no problem, point is I was prepared to teach him and really him only (until I had someone else with the same issues) the Nahanchi katas as well as a couople of others that didn't involve all of the switching directions so he could advance through the ranks.

I believed then and still do that he stood a far better chance of being helped in my school, both with his social skills, his physical skills etc. etc. if he was in my school as opposed to another competitor's school. Therefore I was going to help him succeed even if I had to tweak things for him. It is hard but I believed in the kid and my that my instruction could help him. But I was going to lose him if I made him do all of these katas that he wasn't able to do due to his special needs.

If he doesn't want t grapple maybe teach him hopw not to get taken to the ground, when he is older then he can maybe learn to grapple if he can handle it.

I did have a point where we planned for him to train three times per week to meet the deadline for a test - I was skeptical that he was going to be able to step it up as not just his sensory challenges but also his personality are not helpful along these lines. He did FABULOUSLY and I gushed about it to his parents. He was very content and felt more confident, stronger, his fitness level and ability level improved dramatically ... and then ... they went on vacation, came back and took it down to once per week after the test. So the inconsistency has not served him well at all and I'm extremely disappointed in these parents ... but what can I really do? When I say it sucks for him, I mean the facts that his parents are not helping him nor recognizing his deficits along with his marked talents and the blase attitude towards practicing all adds up to shortchanging him, IMVHO. Thus, also IMVHO, I think it sucks for him.

I understand, this happens, happened to me as well. These are things you don't have control over, making him grapple when he has issues is something you do have control over. Please don't take offense at this but who is short changing him?

But ... these things are *part* of the art. If I separate them and turn it into an upgrade program, I will be watering down what I already have only to enrichen it later and if I call these things separate arts I am compelled to hold some rank in each of these arts to offer them. With sincere respect, I don't feel any more comfortable splitting off the knife work and calling it "Pekiti Tersia" and charging extra for it than I do calling this art "Tae Kwon Do."

In the natural progression of Pung Wol Do, this is the practice also, but we don't call these things anything else but Pung Wol Do.

I looked up your art, I didn't know what art you studied before, I now understand better where you are coming from. It would be like me teaching Modern Arnis and saying I'm going to rank you separately in double stick, single stick and empty hand.

My understanding is the Pung Wol Kwan is currently assembling the curriculum for the higher ranks and I wish to follow that curriculum as following the WHRDA curriculum could get me in trouble. I'm sure Master Corona would have little problem with my tweaking it some - most especially for children.

I looked at Master Corona's website and noticed how he had a stand a lone school, along with a kid's program "Little Ninja's" have yoiu talked with him about your situation with your school?

A fair amount of judo is incorporated into the syllabus. Joint lock throws and judo throws are a significant part of the curriculum.

I notcied that also BJJ and Aikido was mentioned as well.

Mostly familiarization right now with the exception of the techniques I know. My teacher did not have us practice with sticks much - nowhere near as much as I would like. This is an area where I am definitely compelled to further my own studies and, until then, refer out for further training.

I think teaching a person that a technique is over with a punch to the face and a kick to the knee is a mistake. Children are not required to learn follow-ups until they're 13 and those in the abbreviated program also do not. Everyone else needs to know how to END THE FIGHT. For self-defense I think this is crucial.

I agree with you, I teach my students a progression of responses due to the serverity of the encounter. For instance if the attack is a grab or a punch or kick, it is to evade, block, deflect, hit them and take them to the grown. If it involves a wepaon they do the same but take them to the ground and stomp them or such. I don't like teaching locks on the ground because for self defense if the person has friends then, the control technique could be bad idea. Just like in combatives and FMA we might strip the weapon and use it against the person on the ground. I never teach my kids (my TKD students) to follow up like that because that could get them trouble with the law. instead they need to follow up with something (perferably to the legs) and run!!!!

Adults a slightly different game plan.

However I know of a another school that teaches the standard lying arm bar to young 6-10yr olds yellow belts. I can't go there.

I'd like for any black belt I might turn out to be able to teach military and law enforcement as well as Joe Plumber.

For adult black belts I totally agree, however they should also have the maturity to know the difference between civilian, LEO, and military needs as they are not one in the same.

With all due respect, I still think *some* ground game, mainly basic principles of being able to defend and control the attack in that situation is important - especially with how available BJJ and MMA training is right now.

True however, if someone is going to get me on the ground and want to break my arm by putting me in a lock (SPEAKING IN A NON SPORT SITUATION OUTSIDE OF THE DOJO) or to choke me out for whatever reason. I will be glad to stick my fingers in their eyes, pull their hair, bite etc. etc. I would much rather teach this idea then the need for "rolling". As an experiment, have your senior students roll; with one told to submit the other and the other free to go for the face (eyes), or to yank the fingers, "dirty" techniques and see who comes out ahead. Of course when the one gets a finger, or the eyes, then they should count that as the win (for safety sake). Or have the one have to submit the other and the other have a knife in their pocket or on their person concealed and they get to open it and use it. Of course both of these drills need to be watched VERY CAREFULLY AND ONLY USE TRAINING OR RUBBER KNIVES. Doing this years ago helped me to rethink the amount of grappling I was going to teach.

That was a lot of discussion to get around to agreeing with me! :lol: Seriously, I appreciate everything you have already put into this discussion. It's SO helpful to bounce this off of another KMAist who has an idea of what I'm talking about. Thank you!

Thank you for starting the thread. I have enjoyed conversing with you. I believe you are better off keeping your doors open and ultimately training your students than doing things that will allow your school to close because you can't make your bills. Take advantage of the advice you have been given on the board and the offers of help by Jason. Brian King's post on 8-8 is excellent as to defining what you feel success is. What you can live with and what you will do to make your school successful. You need to really think about it.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Sorry guys once again my post was screwed up with multiple quotes. Just FYI I was very careful to do it right this time however during my long post we had a storm come through and my internet connection was disconnected. That also turned off the auto correct (I just noticed) so sorry for the post. One of the moderators corrected/or fixed the previous post and hopefully they will do that again to this one.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

all set

 

[shesulsa]

Sorry, when you posted that he had "Asperger's" I thought that the parents had confirmed this with you and had talked to you about it. It is a very hard spot you are in and I sympathize with you. I too would not feel comfortable making that call however..... it might still need to be done if he is being disruptive. Another way though might be to talk with the parents about the child refusing to grapple, ask them how he is at home? Does he grapple with Dad? His brother? Friends? While it might be play wrestling if he does, than he might be uncomfortable with grappling with others and that is something as the instructor I believe you need to deal with. Are you going to accommodate his special needs or not?

He definitely does not roughhouse with ANYONE. He is a very sensitive boy and - unrelated to his condition - is also very coddled. No judgement, just stating fact. His mom is the most loving, sweet, life-is-wonderful woman who *adores* her children. Both her children actually have *some* level of sensory delay but the boy's issues are definitely marked. Interestingly enough, he is highly competitive and can't stand to lose. I've been trying to work with him to learn to find ways to self-soothe and deal with his discomfort but it's not happening.

SO ... I did offer to him continuance without grappling or sparring; same for his sister. They're "thinking about it." I know I can't help all kids ... He has made strides but he needs more support than just I can give him. I am, however, more than willing to help him find success and still offer him somewhat of a challenge.

Please don't take offense at this but who is short changing him?

None taken at all.

I looked at Master Corona's website and noticed how he had a stand a lone school, along with a kid's program "Little Ninja's" have you talked with him about your situation with your school?

Not this particularly - we've discussed growing the business and I've done some of the things he suggested, things I can afford to do right now. I know he has a youth program there, but am unsure exactly what it entails. My assumption is that though he is the head of the Kwan we don't really seem to have the feel of an organization per se - or perhaps there is one and I do not have my finger on the pulse as 1. I'm quite a ways away and 2. I can't afford to travel and have a better one-on-one relationship. There are other things that factor in here that I won't mention, if you don't mind.

Thank you for starting the thread. I have enjoyed conversing with you. I believe you are better off keeping your doors open and ultimately training your students than doing things that will allow your school to close because you can't make your bills. Take advantage of the advice you have been given on the board and the offers of help by Jason. Brian King's post on 8-8 is excellent as to defining what you feel success is. What you can live with and what you will do to make your school successful. You need to really think about it.

Thank you!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Last night we had a color belt grading at my dojang and I asked a TKD black belt I know to come judge on the panel as my guest. He is also a business and marketing consultant and we've been talking about keeping my doors open - an increasingly difficult challenge. He had some interesting things to say.

1. He said we're much more hardcore than the style he trains in - we're all about the finish (blush).

2. While that's admirable (and various accolades I won't add here) that he didn't know how good it was for business.

I've been invited to the dojang where he trains to sit on a dan testing panel and he practically apologized in advance, saying it's more about a display. They will perform one form, a few techniques, spar a little and they're done. No one's test goes beyond 15 minutes. :mst: I just held a color rank test that lasted two hours for three candidates ... and it was abbreviated.

Yesterday afternoon I received a text from the mom of two kids who are difficult to train (one more so than the other) and who are not ... physically gifted. Her younger son (who I suspect has Asperger's, undiagnosed) hates our freestyle grappling SO MUCH he wants to transfer from belt ranking class to self-defense class once per week. Not only is my self-defense class cheaper and does it suck for me, but it also really sucks for HIM.

I'm thinking this guy has a point.

I'm aware that what we do is much more demanding than most other programs out there and while I don't to compromise quality, I really want to try to make money at doing this and fulfill my commitment to spread the art for as long as I live. As it stands now, I will have to close my doors within the next few months if I don't make a big change.

So ... I feel compelled here to offer some choices. Right now I'm offering a self-defense program and a belt-ranking program. I'm thinking about a step-down program that is still a ranking program where they don't grapple or spar or deal with weapons, have less material but still quality stuff with regularly scheduled gradings. This could be good for business and for the community.

I want for what I do to be for everyone - but one program can't BE for everyone. This is one way I can make this happen AND keep my doors open.

It's an interesting balance, quality and business.

Thoughts please.

Georgia,

Can you have a less hard class for kids and keep your more intense training for adults? (* Assumption: More kids and less adults in your school. *)

You would have to make it clear that the children program and the ranks are not adult. That say Tier I of kids lines up with the third rank of Adult when they are done, and Tier II could be 5 or 6 depending upon the total number of ranks in your system. This might allow you to keep quality and also bring the level down a little to your larger customer base. The Kids could be be restricted to Tier I based upon Age with your option of moving them up based upon quality and the same for Tier II. The age brackets would be up to you based upon what you think is best. Also you could have three Tiers and have each rank be a total of two Adult belts, but each could be 6 or more ranks through each tier.

Just some thoughts before reading the thread, so if already presented sorry.