punching...

[hand2handCombat]

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

 

[tmanifold]

western boxing punches are designed to have a glove on the end of them. I have found many martial arts have good punches but very few people train them against hard contact. How many people use a real Makiwara(sp?) any more, or practice a reverse punch on heavy bag?

An over hand right will break your hand if thrown without gloves, as will a hook if it is not throw just right. It is to bad there isn't anyone around that can teach old school bareknuckle boxing. It isn't that closely related to modern boxing.


Tony

 

[hand2handCombat]

one reason why i think that ppl dont train in hard contact is becasue heavy bags, unlike ppl are hard and dont really move much. the only part that moves it the bottom.

they should make almost human like dummeis.

 

[KennethKu]

Today's makiwara is mostly a canvas bag filled with beans or rice for entry level training , and BB's (buck shot or ball bearings) or gravels for hardcore training. It is 10X harder to hit than a heavybag.

The traditional makiwara is hard on the fists. Then again, punching a 50 lb canvas bag of pit rock, has not exactly being a catwalk for my forefists.

 

[Carbon]

You won't always break your hand throwing punches. Trust me its the way you roll your fist the amount of support your knuckles get. This is why holding a roll of quarters let you hit harder because you can exert more force without your knuckles folding in.

I have seen many bare knuckle fights and rarely have I seen broken hands. Yes maybe bruised hands but never broken. They are usually only broke by someone who is just plain awful at throwing a punch and throws wildly.

MA punches are fine except for the fact that you are only going to use 1 to 3 different punches in a real fight and most likely won't be perfect technique. I think that if you really want to learn how to strike effectively with your hands, take up wing chun.

 

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Carbon

You won't always break your hand throwing punches. Trust me its the way you roll your fist the amount of support your knuckles get. This is why holding a roll of quarters let you hit harder because you can exert more force without your knuckles folding in.

I have seen many bare knuckle fights and rarely have I seen broken hands. Yes maybe bruised hands but never broken. They are usually only broke by someone who is just plain awful at throwing a punch and throws wildly.

I know that you don't always break your hand throwing punches but if you throw an overhand right (the most popuar "power" puch these days) you have a good chance. The same goes for hooks unless you throw the just right.

I admit that some boxing punches are very good and the use of combos is one of the keys to boxings effectiveness. Here are some limitations:

Boxing punches are designed to use the gloves to an advantage. If you added a full pound to your fist you would want the weight in the end of an arc instead of driven in to a target as you should do bare knuckle. Also, a vertical fist is stronger than a horizontal fist, which is taught in boxing. Lastly the boxing stance does not prevent closing to grappling range because the ref will seperate you. Old time bareknucklers would stand in that "fighting irish" stance because it presented a physical barrier to an opponet that wanted to grapple instead of box, as was legal in those days.

Three punches I take from boxing:
A piston like right cross that driven in and uses a vertical fist.
A straight, stiff jab also called a straight blast
An uppercut that goes straight up the pipe between the elbows, not on a 45.
Also if you don't do a lot of hard contact sparring, boxing will teach you not to turn away and just fight.


Tony

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

You may be right, but I don't throw punches to bony target really and I think bag-work is sufficient to train my punches. I used to do lots of bag-work and I notice that when I've been off a long time, I hurt my wrist when I take it back up.

However, I don't throw a lot of punches anyway. I prefer to heel-palm so I can grab/rake/tear, but I do like to use backknuckles as well. Hammerfists, and handswords may be my next most-used strikes.


:asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible.

You are correct , I disagree. I would say that many MA don't know the correct application of the punch.
But I would like to hear which punches you mean?

why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

As somebody mentioned before. Boxing is with gloves, even the gaurd in boxing uses the gloves.

I don't know which art/style you pratice, it would be interessting to know how you think cross training will help.


/Yari

 

[J-kid]

Westen Boxing has alot of pluses...... Because of the fact when they swing there guard is up , if you ask me they have written the book on punching just because its so effective the way they do it i dont think Most MAs can punch worth **** bringing a punch down lets your oppent take a swing at your face . with out a guard you get hit you cant block every thing.Your friend - Judo-kid

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

with out a guard you get hit you cant block every thing.Your friend - Judo-kid

Have you ever thought of that, as something positiv. Getting people to throw a punch in head-hight opens them up. And since you "know" he's going to throw it there, it's dobble as easy.

But this takes more than a few years to get because it's hard. But ask around, the best way to take somebody is to place yourself in a situaiton were you have control; punches /kicks / strangles and so on.

/Yari

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Today's makiwara is mostly a canvas bag filled with beans or rice for entry level training , and BB's (buck shot or ball bearings) or gravels for hardcore training. It is 10X harder to hit than a heavybag.

First off:

Maki= rap
Wara= staw

Makiwara=wrapped straw.
Not bean filled bags or any other such thing.

Originally posted by KennethKu

The traditional makiwara is hard on the fists. Then again, punching a 50 lb canvas bag of pit rock, has not exactly being a catwalk for my forefists.

Actually no. With proper training it is not that hard on the fists at all.
One should work up gradually and COMFORTABLY on the makiwara..............don't slam your fist into from day one.
Work up at a comfortable pace to more powerful strikes.
Most practitioners today think the makiwara is to make those nice big callused knuckles....................wrong.
Makiwara training is to develop a strong punch by strengthening the wrist, arms and back, and to some extant the legs.
It teaches proper distance, focus, and power.

I use the makiwara as a litmus test for common sense in karateka.
Those that give it a good hard smack the very first time and injure themselves lack common sense.................since there is not much difference in that and smacking a tree.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

................... i dont think Most MAs can punch worth ****
Your friend - Judo-kid

Is that so?

I disagree. My teacher punched a metal kendo helmet and put a pretty good sized dent in it.
No doubt it would have do some damage to someone's face if he punched them.

 

[Eraser]

Hmmmm

I dont believe that the punches in Hapkido suck... I may Suck at applying them.. but.. i need more practise.. They can be very powerful, (as long as i remember to retract my other hand properly) When you learn how to use your whole body for the punch, they can be very effective.. but like others before me have posted, Its not somthing that you learned overnight.. it takes practise.....lots and lots..

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually no. With proper training it is not that hard on the fists at all.
One should work up gradually and COMFORTABLY on the makiwara..............don't slam your fist into from day one.
Work up at a comfortable pace to more powerful strikes.
Most practitioners today think the makiwara is to make those nice big callused knuckles....................wrong.
Makiwara training is to develop a strong punch by strengthening the wrist, arms and back, and to some extant the legs.
It teaches proper distance, focus, and power.

I use the makiwara as a litmus test for common sense in karateka.
Those that give it a good hard smack the very first time and injure themselves lack common sense.................since there is not much difference in that and smacking a tree.

With all due respect sir, straw Makiwara is obsolete. The physical feature of Makiwara can be duplicated without the limitation of traditional Makiwara. It is basicall a combo of elasticity (the pole limited flexibility provides the resistance) and a shock absorber (the straw). (BTW, most of today's Makiwara is either canvas bag of particles or rubber foam punching pad. Both are wall mounted. If anyone want a traditional Makiwara, he would most likely have to make his own. At least that is the case in the US and Canada. )

In that regards, JMHO that, a canvas bag filled with hard particles (BB's , gravels), will offer the same conditioning benefits AND furthermore, does not hold back strength developement. Yes, you punch as heavily as you go. Risk of injury is much lower than when a pole Makiwara is used. The canvas bag of particles provides both the resistance as well as the shock absorber. It is far more accomodating than a pole in the ground. Of course, that is just a personal opinion :asian:

As to the limitation of Makiwara in holding back strength development, the following article does a better job in explaining it.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/28_makiwara.html

 

[Nightingale]

I practice my punches on a heavy bag all the time. I wrap my hands, but don't wear gloves or anything.

However, when I'm fighting, I tend to use ridgehands and backknuckles much more than punches... I dunno. maybe punching is more of a guy thing.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Yari



Have you ever thought of that, as something positiv. Getting people to throw a punch in head-hight opens them up. And since you "know" he's going to throw it there, it's dobble as easy.

But this takes more than a few years to get because it's hard. But ask around, the best way to take somebody is to place yourself in a situaiton were you have control; punches /kicks / strangles and so on.

/Yari

Good point Yari. At my last tournament I fought a guy who was much taller than me, he had a significant reach advantage, but several times he came in with a roundhouse punch and I was able to kick him right in the groin. I was amazed that he never caught on. I do this a lot so I caution you to remember that boxers are not at all concerned with sweeps, buckles, traps, or kicks of any kind Especially kicks to the groin. So perhaps hand2hand just needs to work on his punching.

Someone else posted about their teacher hitting a helmet. I have also hit a few doors and walls and stuff before and done noticeable damage without hurting my wrist so I would have to say that a 2000 year old fighting style is not to blame for bad punches, it is more likely the practicioner.

I'd rather be able to trap, coutergrab and use my hands than fight with boxing gloves any day.

Just my 2 1/2 cents.
:asian:

 

[fissure]

I think MA offers some of the most potentionally powerful punching tech. around.However many people get into the habit of hitting nothing but air, resulting in less than functonal tech.I mean this in the same way that when someone kicks a heavy bag with a front kick for the first time, often thier foot shoots 'up' the front of the bag instead of 'into' it.

a canvas bag filled with hard particles (BB's , gravels), will offer the same conditioning benefits AND furthermore, does not hold back strength developement.

I think this is true to the some extent.However I don't believe the bag will give you the recoil effect of a tapered makiwara board.This recoil is one component of strenghtening the wrist,tendons,ect.

Even though I was 'made fun of ' somewhat in another forum for bringing up board breaking, I'm going to do it again!
I still say you can't punch through too many boards without hurting yourself, if you are not a strong puncher.I have broken 7 boards at once, with a reverse punch.I'm sure there are many who could do more, but I think this represents a decent punch none the less.
Just my opinions.:EG:

 

[hand2handCombat]

i dont have to worry about the defences bescasue martial arts provide excellent defense. i have a great kick but weak punch.

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

 

[Eraser]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

I'm way better at kicking.....

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

i dont have to worry about the defences bescasue martial arts provide excellent defense. i have a great kick but weak punch.

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

I should be equally effecient at both, but if you include palm, strikes and such, I would say I'm a much better puncher than kicker, but thats relative to my style.

7sm