Punch and Kick Force?

Touch Of Death

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<shrugs> It's not mutually exclusive. One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.

I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee. In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control. They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques. They're great at low-high paddle drills. However, a much few percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving. To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.
I think hitting hard comes from controling the path of your weaopon, I think any given guy can hit really hard, but are they centered?
Sean
 

ATC

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What sort of control are you refering to?
Sean
The control of ones body. Understanding how it is all linked and how to get maximum explosiveness from it. Take the simple round house for example. Most do this kick by turning the shoulders first. It takes time and practice to push off the floor and turn the hips and shoulders at the same time for maximum power, speed, and explosiveness. Without that control you get a hard hit but not a powerful hit. You also become faster to the target and telegraph little to none until too late.

Just watch people when they kick, you will most always see a shoulder turn then the hips then the leg. A 3 step process that should look like 1. You will then start to see other bad control habits like the front foot taking a step or even just a pickup and turn before it is to pivot with the hips. I see this everyday and it take me pointing this out to just about every student. Even black belts.

This is the type of control I am talking about. Once you have it you will see your speed, power, and explosiveness start to increase.
 

Touch Of Death

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The control of ones body. Understanding how it is all linked and how to get maximum explosiveness from it. Take the simple round house for example. Most do this kick by turning the shoulders first. It takes time and practice to push off the floor and turn the hips and shoulders at the same time for maximum power, speed, and explosiveness. Without that control you get a hard hit but not a powerful hit. You also become faster to the target and telegraph little to none until too late.

Just watch people when they kick, you will most always see a shoulder turn then the hips then the leg. A 3 step process that should look like 1. You will then start to see other bad control habits like the front foot taking a step or even just a pickup and turn before it is to pivot with the hips. I see this everyday and it take me pointing this out to just about every student. Even black belts.

This is the type of control I am talking about. Once you have it you will see your speed, power, and explosiveness start to increase.
I understand, for us it should all look the same wheather you are punching or kicking.
Sean
 

jks9199

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If you are training to develop control then power is the by product of that type of training.

If you are only trying to develop power without control then you will never develop your full potential of power.

Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.

I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a 135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135 pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little
(only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.

I now understand this and I can tell you that all my student and fellow black belts say I hit harder than people larger than me. Not because I work on power but because I work on control.

The other thing I can say is that if you get into a situation where you are evenly matched or you may even be slightly better, you better have control or all your tense power swings will tire you out faster than anything and you will find yourself on the losing end of such encounter. Well only if you opponent is under control. Power is nice but when understood. Power out of control will fade fast.
That's not control -- that's technique. The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.
 

Blade96

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Showing control is also great for staying out of prison.:ultracool
sean

lmao. =]

<shrugs> It's not mutually exclusive. One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.

I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee. In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control. They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques. They're great at low-high paddle drills. However, a much lower percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving. To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.

Touche.

I take yer point. :)

But what some other people said also makes sense. Like the one who used the mawashi geri as an example. without the control of the body you cannot develop full power.
 

ATC

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That's not control -- that's technique. The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.
That may not be control to you, But to me if you have no control of your body and mind then you have no technique. Once you can control it all then any technique can be performed. I would say your view, "to me" is to simple. Once you have the type of control I am talking about you can deliver any technique with full speed, no power and not hurt anyone, or with full speed and any range of power to do whatever you want to anyone. Try that without technique and you have no control, and that is when we see people get hurt in the dojang. The two are indeed one and the same.

I had a student the other day not hit someone in the head with a kick when he had the perfect chance to. I asked him why did he not just take the foot to the head? He said that he would have taken the person out. I said just control it. He said I can't, once the leg is up it's just coming down with full force. Why? Bad technique, thus no control. You can't have one without the other.
 
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dancingalone

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lmao. =]
But what some other people said also makes sense. Like the one who used the mawashi geri as an example. without the control of the body you cannot develop full power.

I think we might need to define what control is. Obviously we must be in command of our body to strike properly. That includes understanding and being able to maximize speed and mass at the point of contact.

I think you might be substituting 'precision' for control. Precision in martial arts is being able to deliver power at a predefined level to a specific contact point. I submit that it is relatively easy to learn to hit a target with a minimal to moderate level of power. Doing so just means less contraction of the muscles as you deliver the blow at perhaps a slower speed than you are capable of. It is much more difficult to learn to engage all the correct muscle groups with the correct timing so that all the physical elements coalesce at the same delivery point, combining to produce knockout power.
 

Touch Of Death

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That's not control -- that's technique. The two are not synonymous, though they are rarely developed to high levels independently.
While I agree that control is a regulation of force, depth of force (or dimensional stage of action), and target, Like most. Its obvious that control is a term that can also refer to technique. Its not that big of a stretch. Vocabulary changes from school to school.
Sean
 

jks9199

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I think we might need to define what control is. Obviously we must be in command of our body to strike properly. That includes understanding and being able to maximize speed and mass at the point of contact.

I think you might be substituting 'precision' for control. Precision in martial arts is being able to deliver power at a predefined level to a specific contact point. I submit that it is relatively easy to learn to hit a target with a minimal to moderate level of power. Doing so just means less contraction of the muscles as you deliver the blow at perhaps a slower speed than you are capable of. It is much more difficult to learn to engage all the correct muscle groups with the correct timing so that all the physical elements coalesce at the same delivery point, combining to produce knockout power.

Those are, perhaps, more useful definitions than simply saying "control." After all, with proper control of the dynamics of space, and control over my body alignment, and control of the technique, I can deliver a controlled strike that does no damage, while allowing me to control the opponent and take them down in a controlled fall, landing gently... :D

I think we're definitely running into a terminology clash here!
 

Blade96

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Knowing that is a plus.
sean

Yea....but still made me very self conscious in class yesterday when i was the only one there my rank and all the rest is brown and black belts and I couldn't help comparing myself to them and saying to sensei "I am not good" :(

was in a bad mood and as a result wound up saying to one of BB's who asked me to repeat something 'well i already know that' (for which I acted like a jerk and i'm going to personally apologize to him for)
 

Kyosanim

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Does anyone know the average punch of a normal human and an average boxer/karate expert in PSI?

Also what is the kick force of a normal human and a kickboxer/karate expert in PSI? I assume it is MUCH higher than the punch considering our legs are more than 3 times stronger than our arms.



Thanks

Look up fight science pilot on hulu. This will not be an average because they are all masters and professional fighters, but it will give you an idea of how high it can be. My former master once told us that he could generate 7000 psi with a kick but I doubt that is accurate as the muay thai knee strike is a bit lower than that in memory, and it increases its psi by reducing the targets ability to rock back. Kind of like hitting another car in your car vs a telephone pole. The phone pole does not move the car does. Thus doubling the impact force of the attack because more energy travels to the target when it can't move back words. I am no math wizz though so I would look it up, but I think that is how it works.
 

Kyosanim

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Yea....but still made me very self conscious in class yesterday when i was the only one there my rank and all the rest is brown and black belts and I couldn't help comparing myself to them and saying to sensei "I am not good" :(

was in a bad mood and as a result wound up saying to one of BB's who asked me to repeat something 'well i already know that' (for which I acted like a jerk and i'm going to personally apologize to him for)


We all go through that phase in the martial arts ;). The important thing is you learn from it. You are right at that level where you really want more but don't know how to achieve it, and you look around and see others that have it and become frustrated. First off relax you cannot compare yourself with brown and black belts they have way more time in than you do!!!!! Which means what? More practice and practice makes perfect. I suggest that you take a different perspective in your analysis of your skills. Instead of saying look at what I can't do say look at what I will do. My advice is to ask the black and brown belts if you can work out with them before class or something. You are very lucky or blessed or something to be put in a class where everyone is above you in skill and rank because that means every last one of them has something they can teach you!!! Don't be discouraged little yellow belt if you put your heart and soul into it greatness is just around the corner!!!!

Be warned though if you work out with black belts you are going to get knocked around a bit, and be frustrated a lot, but on the bright side you will learn faster working with them, and get to have that I did it I actually landed a blow on a black belt feel that will be very encouraging. When you apologize ask if he feels the same way when he looks at your sensei as I'm sure he does.
 

actionmanrandell

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Pounds per Square Inch

As in, per square inch of contact area, how many pounds of force are behind it.
that is not true your wright about it being pounds per squire inch but 1 psi is not equal to 1 lb of force. psi is different type of measurement i watched a show called fight science where they measured one mans strike and it was around 25,000 psi which was equal to only a few hundred lbs of force
 

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Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will transfer momentum.

I think this is best explained by following through to your target area. If your target is internal, then follow through to it. If the target is near the surface, "snap" it.

You are the first person I have heard explain it right, even if you did make it very complicated to follow :) People keep asking how to measure the force of a punch. What they don't understand is force (f = m * a) is the formula to measure the energy it took to get the object moving at that acceleration and speed. That is how to measure the effects of a punch.

To measure the effects of a punch, you need to use the kinetic energy (ke = 1/2 mass * velocity squared). So you are very correct that speed is the biggest factor unless your target is deep inside. If the target is deep inside, the ke will not reach the target unless you have the momentum to reach it and that needs mass behind it unless the impact area is so small, like a bullet and even then it can be a problem reaching the target (such as shooting into water).

Now if you can get your whole body behind a punch and only loose a little speed, then that is most effective. Now if it's a rotational strike like the brazilan fighter in "Fight Science" (which by the way, they got it all wrong), then you have to use the rotational kinetic energy formula which is complex.

Why was "Fight Science" all wrong? Simple, they were attempting to measure force which I stated above is a measurement of a totally different thing. The formula for force is f = m * a (acceleration). Now lets think of a truck that is on a highway going 50 mph and has been for a long time. Not much acceleration there. Now lets say the driver lets off of the gas pedal for 10 seconds before he hits something; the force is a negative number because the acceleration is negative, but I get what ever he hit didn't think the impact effect was a negative value. You see, the formula for acceleration involves time. A beginning time and an ending time. That is irrelevant when it comes to impact. What matters during impact is mass. speed and the base. That's all.

One more issue. Kinetic Energy is measured in Jules. Jules can be converted to PSI or PSF or bunch of other values, but as you can see, the size of the impacting surface matters greatly like a bullet which focuses all of it's energy in a very small area. If you took that same Jules and spread it out over the entire body, which is what a Kevlar vest does, then the effect of it is much less. I say this because I keep reading that "you don't care about psi" which is totally wrong.

I hope Delamar and I have put to rest a lot of false information, especially that crap in the "Fight Science" video floating around. Want to know which fighter has the most impact damage in that video, it's simple, look at the reaction of the bag. The bag doesn't lie. Every action has an equal opposite reaction. You can also hear the difference, which was the Brazilian fighter. Why? Because even though he was a little slower, he had a LOT more mass behind his kicks. Sure, speed is most important but when you can get your whole body behind it, you can afford to lose some speed.
 

Tez3

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Welcome to MT JackJack and Actionmanrandall! Why don't you pop over to the Meet and Greet section and say hello, I promise you'll get a warm welcome and we'd love to hear about your styles/arts. :)
 

Bruno@MT

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Why was "Fight Science" all wrong? Simple, they were attempting to measure force which I stated above is a measurement of a totally different thing. The formula for force is f = m * a (acceleration). Now lets think of a truck that is on a highway going 50 mph and has been for a long time. Not much acceleration there. Now lets say the driver lets off of the gas pedal for 10 seconds before he hits something; the force is a negative number because the acceleration is negative, but I get what ever he hit didn't think the impact effect was a negative value. You see, the formula for acceleration involves time. A beginning time and an ending time. That is irrelevant when it comes to impact. What matters during impact is mass. speed and the base. That's all..

I'm sorry Jack, but the above paragraph is ... just wrong.

F=m*a is indeed force, but the 'a' and 'm' you have to consider is the acceleration and mass of the object that's been hit. Whatever the truck has been doing in the seconds, hours, or years prior to the impact is irrelevant.

One more issue. Kinetic Energy is measured in Jules. Jules can be converted to PSI or PSF or bunch of other values, but as you can see, the size of the impacting surface matters greatly like a bullet which focuses all of it's energy in a very small area. If you took that same Jules and spread it out over the entire body, which is what a Kevlar vest does, then the effect of it is much less. I say this because I keep reading that "you don't care about psi" which is totally wrong.

No, it can't. Joules is energy. Pressure is excertion of force. They are completely different things.

And you are also wrong in your conclusion. Let's consider a strike to the head, bareknuckle (small area) or with large boxing gloves. The smaller the target, the more localized damage. But the impact on the brain will be identical to the hit that was done with the gloves. Impact energy is transferred to the brain via the skull. How that energy got delivered to the skull (wide or small area) is irrelevant.

It is true that for localized effects, the surface area IS important, but it has nothing to do with pressure. Just because pressure ALSO is related to surface area does not mean that everything in which surface area plays a part is caused by pressure.
 
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