Properly identify what you teach and learn.

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

People greatly overestimate how in touch with reality LEO admins are, in terms of where they allocate resources. Good combatives programs are expensive, and gyms with instructors certified in them are not common--thus the next best thing is local BJJ.

Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.

The best thing is independent contractors, who are competing with each other on R&D, and who are informed by students who've survived new evolutions in the field.

A lot of people died or got seriously injured, before the modern paradigm of weapons-based training evolved into what it is.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The best thing is independent contractors, who are competing with each other on R&D, and who are informed by students who've survived new evolutions in the field.

A lot of people died or got seriously injured, before the modern paradigm of weapons-based training evolved into what it is.

The issue with that, is that they don't have to be the best at R&D. They just have to appear capable (likely to someone unsure of what to look for), and offer the best pricing. So you could have the best instructor in the state next door, but hire this other guy who is more charismatic, says a few buzzwords, and costs half the price.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

The issue with that, is that they don't have to be the best at R&D. They just have to appear capable (likely to someone unsure of what to look for), and offer the best pricing. So you could have the best instructor in the state next door, but hire this other guy who is more charismatic, says a few buzzwords, and costs half the price.

That is the issue with the RBSD and TMA communities in a nutshell--people who don't know better fall for marketing. RBSD has the bigger problem, because it has to be informed by modern fighting experiences, and not by lineage. Your only options are to drop several 100$ to go train with the known best, be lucky with geography, or train remote (which is only useful if your fundamentals are solid enough to understand what they're teaching).

 

[Dirty Dog]

You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class.

Unless they are also a martial artist.

You would not want a martial artist developing a security plan for someone who receives a threatening text message.

Unless they do personal protection.

Being able to teach a fire drill, or tornado drill does not qualify you to teach self-defense.

Neither does it disqualify you.

I spent 40 years in emergency medicine. About 9 years of that was spent in an air ambulance doing anything from High Angle rescue, to search and recovery, to inter-facility transport. I have a degree in nursing and a masters in human physiology.

I also started training 50+ years ago. I am qualified to teach martial arts classes. I've been doing so for the last 15-ish years.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That is the issue with the RBSD and TMA communities in a nutshell--people who don't know better fall for marketing. RBSD has the bigger problem, because it has to be informed by modern fighting experiences, and not by lineage. Your only options are to drop several 100$ to go train with the known best, be lucky with geography, or train remote (which is only useful if your fundamentals are solid enough to understand what they're teaching).

Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.

note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Unless they are also a martial artist.

Unless they do personal protection.

Neither does it disqualify you.

I spent 40 years in emergency medicine. About 9 years of that was spent in an air ambulance doing anything from High Angle rescue, to search and recovery, to inter-facility transport. I have a degree in nursing and a masters in human physiology.

I also started training 50+ years ago. I am qualified to teach martial arts classes. I've been doing so for the last 15-ish years.

I don't disagree with any of this. That's awesome Dirty Dog!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.

Don't worry--the only argumentative *** driven to win, that I've encountered on the matter so far, is Drop Bear.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

note for @GreenieMeanie since tone is tough to tell online, and most discussions are arguments. I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, more supplementing your point..in the same way bjj can supplement rbsd.

I believe that the MMAs set the foundation, and good RBSD shows you how to weak the MMA for a given situation.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Don't worry--the only argumentative *** driven to win, that I've encountered on the matter so far, is Drop Bear.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

In this context, who represents the client?

 

[drop bear]

Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.

Yup. Part of it comes down to quality control. It's easy to quality control BJJ-belts have a specific meaning and tournaments, visitors and visiting instructors keep the schools in check. It's much tougher to keep quality control in LEO programs, so while it may have a higher ceiling for relevancy/usefulness in the field, there is a much lower floor for those outcomes.

Quality control was basically where I was going with that.. which leads back to the toothpaste skit.

Most of the specifics are theoretical rather than practical.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?

All of it in one drill.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?

 

[drop bear]

All of it in one drill.

Theoretical.


So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.

Everything else was staged. It may have been staged realistically or unrealistically but it wasn't a real competitive drill.

I mean why did he walk down that hall way in the first place?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Theoretical.


So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.

Everything else was staged. It may have been staged realistically or unrealistically but it wasn't a real competitive drill.

I mean why did he walk down that hall way in the first place?

Theoretical.


So for example. The only real part of that scenario was a portion of the fight.

Everything else was staged. It may have been staged realistically or unrealistically but it wasn't a real competitive drill.

I mean why did he walk down that hall way in the first place?

Ok Drop Bear, I will humor you--if you engage in logical fallacies, then I won't waste my time with you any further.

It's not susposed to be a competitive drill. That's not how this works. The only examples of truly "competitive drills" in RBSD are grappling for a knife or gun (as demonstrated in the video you conveniently didn't comment on), and what are essentially airsoft or simmunition matches (which is something military and law enforcement use to simulate gunfights). They are great for teaching you technique, but they don't help you with the rest.
Project Gecko

There are aggressors, defenders, and bystanders. The aggressors and bystanders are to behave a particular way, and the defender has to react accordingly, and they have to adapt to the defender. If the defender does something stupid, the aggressor will react in way that would kill him or innocent bystanders in reality, cops may kill him, etcetera. You can not competitively test edged weapons, but once you've been tapped in vital areas, you can assume that's a hit. If you've tapped with a training knife in the upper chest area, neck, or inner thigh, that's considered fatal, nearly instant endgame, as it would be if it was a real knife.

This is a drill that tests your situational awareness, deciding whether or not to engage, your opportunity to fight, your draw, how you manouver with a weapon, and how you deal with police and bystanders.

 

[Buka]

I’ve been involved with teaching DT since 1979. Sure has been an interesting, and strange, journey.

At the beginning, almost all of the DT instructors I encountered were big, strong men. Most of them, not all, but most, taught techniques that were easy for other big, strong men to do correctly and that might actually work. That wasn’t the case for us smaller guys, or older officers, or small, introverted females.

Fortunately for everyone, a lot of that has changed over the years.

Here’s an example of some of the things we had to go through in Massachusetts. The governing body for DT certification at the time was the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council. We would get certified, then re-certified by them every couple years.

So, one time (early nineties) they did a nation wide search for someone who would be in the position to certify all other officers. I put in for it, but was told “Oh, we’re doing a nationwide search. We’re going to get the best!” And I thought “sure you will, how silly of me.”

So they hire a guy out of Houston PD, Howard L.

I’m working at the Boston PD Academy at the time, part time, as well as my Law Enforcement job full time. Myself and two other really good DT instructors are with me at the Academy. We were all approaching the time for re-certification. So they send Howard L to the Academy. He tells us, “I’ve read your files, know you’re all experienced, so I want you to go through your entire DT course, I’ll observe and ask questions when I have them.”

You could already smell the rat.

So we spent three days going through everything, having a ball, while Howard watched, and asked silly questions every now and then. He then re-certified us.

A week later we learned that Howard L had been fired from the Houston Police Department for various misdeeds, all of them pretty bad. And completely fabricated his resume. He had never taught DT in his life. The damn fool from Mass Criminal Justice never bothered to check on Howard, no vetting, not even a phone call.

So, I’m at work, sitting across from the head of our Legal Department, and I call the head of Mass Criminal Justice, the guy who did the “nationwide search.” I tell him, “we have a big problem” and explain to him that we are not certified because the person who certified us was a phony. He tells us, “Oh, it’s okay, I okayed the certification.”

I said, “Sir, you’re a moron.” Then the head of legal took the phone and told him the same thing.

We then were sent to FLETC, got certified, and everything was okay.

Years later I told my bosses I wanted to completely redesign our entire DT course. They were not happy. I told them, “Just come to my dojo, any night between Monday and Friday, bring your workout clothes and I’ll show you why.”

They actually came, the Section Head, a captain, two Lts and a sergeant. I was pleasantly surprised. They worked out with the guest instructor that week. Rickson Gracie. My bosses left scratching their heads, asking me “How the hell does he do all that stuff? And, yes, redesign anything you want, just get me an autographed T-shirt, please.”

It was kind of funny. But that's how our DT program got straightened out.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I’ve been involved with teaching DT since 1979. Sure has been an interesting, and strange, journey.

At the beginning, almost all of the DT instructors I encountered were big, strong men. Most of them, not all, but most, taught techniques that were easy for other big, strong men to do correctly and that might actually work. That wasn’t the case for us smaller guys, or older officers, or small, introverted females.

Fortunately for everyone, a lot of that has changed over the years.

Here’s an example of some of the things we had to go through in Massachusetts. The governing body for DT certification at the time was the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council. We would get certified, then re-certified by them every couple years.

So, one time (early nineties) they did a nation wide search for someone who would be in the position to certify all other officers. I put in for it, but was told “Oh, we’re doing a nationwide search. We’re going to get the best!” And I thought “sure you will, how silly of me.”

So they hire a guy out of Houston PD, Howard L.

I’m working at the Boston PD Academy at the time, part time, as well as my Law Enforcement job full time. Myself and two other really good DT instructors are with me at the Academy. We were all approaching the time for re-certification. So they send Howard L to the Academy. He tells us, “I’ve read your files, know you’re all experienced, so I want you to go through your entire DT course, I’ll observe and ask questions when I have them.”

You could already smell the rat.

So we spent three days going through everything, having a ball, while Howard watched, and asked silly questions every now and then. He then re-certified us.

A week later we learned that Howard L had been fired from the Houston Police Department for various misdeeds, all of them pretty bad. And completely fabricated his resume. He had never taught DT in his life. The damn fool from Mass Criminal Justice never bothered to check on Howard, no vetting, not even a phone call.

So, I’m at work, sitting across from the head of our Legal Department, and I call the head of Mass Criminal Justice, the guy who did the “nationwide search.” I tell him, “we have a big problem” and explain to him that we are not certified because the person who certified us was a phony. He tells us, “Oh, it’s okay, I okayed the certification.”

I said, “Sir, you’re a moron.” Then the head of legal took the phone and told him the same thing.

We then were sent to FLETC, got certified, and everything was okay.

Years later I told my bosses I wanted to completely redesign our entire DT course. They were not happy. I told them, “Just come to my dojo, any night between Monday and Friday, bring your workout clothes and I’ll show you why.”

They actually came, the Section Head, a captain, two Lts and a sergeant. I was pleasantly surprised. They worked out with the guest instructor that week. Rickson Gracie. My bosses left scratching their heads, asking me “How the hell does he do all that stuff? And, yes, redesign anything you want, just get me an autographed T-shirt, please.”

It was kind of funny. But that's how our DT program got straightened out.

Not quite the same situation, but parallel themes:

I'm aware of an instance in which a police SWAT unit came to an ex-SEAL for NVG gunfighting and CQB. This really didn't make sense, given the environment they worked in, but what the hell? Upon giving them his price, a few $100 per officer, the department head rejected the offer--because they didn't have the budget. It boggled his mind, that the admin found the money for NVGs they didn't really need, but couldn't afford the training to use them.

 

[drop bear]

Ok Drop Bear, I will humor you--if you engage in logical fallacies, then I won't waste my time with you any further.

It's not susposed to be a competitive drill. That's not how this works. The only examples of truly "competitive drills" in RBSD are grappling for a knife or gun (as demonstrated in the video you conveniently didn't comment on), and what are essentially airsoft or simmunition matches (which is something military and law enforcement use to simulate gunfights). They are great for teaching you technique, but they don't help you with the rest.
Project Gecko

There are aggressors, defenders, and bystanders. The aggressors and bystanders are to behave a particular way, and the defender has to react accordingly, and they have to adapt to the defender. If the defender does something stupid, the aggressor will react in way that would kill him or innocent bystanders in reality, cops may kill him, etcetera. You can not competitively test edged weapons, but once you've been tapped in vital areas, you can assume that's a hit. If you've tapped with a training knife in the upper chest area, neck, or inner thigh, that's considered fatal, nearly instant endgame, as it would be if it was a real knife.

This is a drill that tests your situational awareness, deciding whether or not to engage, your opportunity to fight, your draw, how you manouver with a weapon, and how you deal with police and bystanders.

So it is theoretical.