Properly identify what you teach and learn.

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop.

I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag.

This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.

All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Defining success during criminal attacks is critical, I agree. In fact this is a key component of personal security training. However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail. I completely agree that being carjacked by three guys with AK47s is not a situation for martial arts skills. The lack of crossover here is pronounced, as it was intended to be by the example.

I would also agree that most security training is not done well. A big reason for that is that people haven't taken the time to understand the differences needed to effectively teach the subject matter.

Monkey Turned Wolf, you are exactly right.

For the purpose of this discussion, what would you consider success in that scenario?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?

If we want to learn how to fight, we have to fight. We all try to learn how to land our fists on our opponent's face no matter what system we may train.

 

[drop bear]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.

Do they work?

 

[lklawson]

Agreed, but that is largely missing the point. In fact it is the overlap that creates false confidence and misunderstanding. Leading to people not receiving the training they need, or being trained incorrectly.

Nah. Not really. The problem is really when the training a person receives doesn't really do any of those things well but they believe it does.

But if you want to go "it's way more complex than that," OK then... Each of your categories are rather vague, in-explicit, and, frankly, something of a work. Self defense training? Self defense training for what? In what context? Where? When? Who? What counts as effective self defense training for a 17th Century French Aristocrat typically armed with a Smallsword who might be required to fight off 3 or more assassins similarly armed (as is alleged of Cirano) could be quite different from a resident of the bad side of Flint today, which is, of course, different from someone riding the bus in Caracas. Quite honestly, there are VAST variations inside each of your categories but, really and truly, getting good one will generally make you pretty good at another. Do you really think that someone who's decent at Competitive Judo is going to have much a problem if some tweaker decides to swing a haymaker at them in the parking lot? Me neither.

Truthfully, the best answer is for each person to really figure out what it is they want out of their martial arts training and then find instruction or direct their training to that.

Oh, and, of course, what if the person training in martial arts isn't doing it for one of your categories? What if they're interested in just getting a good workout, or maybe they want a "moving meditation," or what if they are interested in the "artistic expression" of the martial art, or maybe they're interested in a historic martial art that may not have much direct application to any modern idea of your categories (Mounted Lance anyone?), or what if they want a martial art that connects them to their ethnic heritage?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation.

How do you know?

You just said that you assumed his skills and training. Are you also assuming he has no skills or training in "car jacking defense?" If so, why do you assume that? Just because you disagree with him?

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Here is another cool overlap that I was suprised wasn't mentioned.

Deescalation.

And Mike Tyson does one of These but I couldn't find it. So here is Zab Juda.

I assume he has no deescalation skills but cannot even start a fight for some reason.

 

[Buka]

I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....

Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.

They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class.

Ha ha ha I work on an IT help desk and I used to teach martial arts.

I'm sure some people take my classes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail.

Not the way I taught classes. I take a well rounded approach when teaching martial arts because it's more than just fighting. There's more mental stuff in fighting then what most people realize. Lots of self mastery involved. Tons of analysis and understanding of body mechanics

I say this all the time to students. "The more I learn about fighting, the less it's about fighting. "

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag.

This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.

All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).

Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training
As the different realms.

The carjacking could fit into a couple of those realms, but not sure where having your bag stolen fits into.
Martial Arts Training: Not a direct relation, IMO. It's related, as those skills transfer over a bit, but it's different than what most martial arts teach/train for.
Self-defense Training: This isn't really self-defense either. You're defended by simply not engaging.
Combatives Training: This is military training right? I suppose retention would fall under hear, but only if he were holding the bag, not if the bag was at a table and he was waiting in line or something along those lines.
Safety Training/Personal Security Training: I must be missing something because these both sound like the same thing to me. And neither are really relevant to a stolen bag-both would say leave the bag alone because you don't know if the robber has a gun, or stole your bag with the intent to lure you out of the store.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....

Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.

They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.

I've dealt with one gun. You pretty much walk a thin line. You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot. You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot. You don't want to piss then off because you get shot. You don't want to step to far away because you get shot. You don't want to step too close because you get shot.

Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.

 

[Buka]

I've dealt with one gun. You pretty much walk a thin line. You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot. You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot. You don't want to piss then off because you get shot. You don't want to step to far away because you get shot. You don't want to step too close because you get shot.

Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.

Unfortunately, I've had guns pointed at me before. It sucked every time.

But one time, in our early twenties, three of us were in Florida, went to the everglades, and had shots fired into the bushes near us. (We think we stumbled onto a drug operation.)

We ran so fast, scared out of our minds. Jumped in the car, took off like a bat out of hell, drove three hours to Key West at eighty miles an hour, changed clothes, hid the car, and drank all night, still scared shipless.

Our courage knew no bounds.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories



Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it

I am not into quoting myself, but there are days, due to 3 eye surgeries that my eyes simply do not work well when it comes to proof reading, and there are so many errors in that I feel I need to correct it

Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sanda/sanshou fighter, and a rather good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking home. She was talking on her cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the waist, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the grocery bag or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it

Sorry about all the original typographical errors

 

[Jared Traveler]

I replied to the AK portion of this, but I believe Mike Tyson will have a better time with someone trying to steal his bag then most people. He might not have the situational awareness, which could put him at a disadvantage to initially notice it/give the robber a heads up, but I would be shocked if the guy stealing the bag can outrun him, as he used to run (I'm assuming we're talking about when he was active/he still is mostly active), 4 miles every morning. And he's got explosive legs, which means that he's got both the sprint speed to catch someone and the stamina to pursue, along with the power to knock the person out when he does catch up to them and/or intimidate them to drop the bag.

This is all assuming you're referring to a bag he is not holding, as that makes the whole point moot; People are not likely to take a bag they see mike tyson wearing/holding, and his grip strength (and shoulder strength) is such they wouldn't succeed anyway. Further putting him at an advantage.

All those advantages are a direct result of boxing/boxing training, so he gains 4 advantages (running speed, power, intimidation, grip strength) with one initial disadvantage (situational awareness).

Right, my original point was regarding awareness and accountability, visually and physical for your personal property to avoid the theft. In other words Mike's boxing training does him no good if he is on his phone and does not see the bag stole.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Nah. Not really. The problem is really when the training a person receives doesn't really do any of those things well but they believe it does.

But if you want to go "it's way more complex than that," OK then... Each of your categories are rather vague, in-explicit, and, frankly, something of a work. Self defense training? Self defense training for what? In what context? Where? When? Who? What counts as effective self defense training for a 17th Century French Aristocrat typically armed with a Smallsword who might be required to fight off 3 or more assassins similarly armed (as is alleged of Cirano) could be quite different from a resident of the bad side of Flint today, which is, of course, different from someone riding the bus in Caracas. Quite honestly, there are VAST variations inside each of your categories but, really and truly, getting good one will generally make you pretty good at another. Do you really think that someone who's decent at Competitive Judo is going to have much a problem if some tweaker decides to swing a haymaker at them in the parking lot? Me neither.

Truthfully, the best answer is for each person to really figure out what it is they want out of their martial arts training and then find instruction or direct their training to that.

Oh, and, of course, what if the person training in martial arts isn't doing it for one of your categories? What if they're interested in just getting a good workout, or maybe they want a "moving meditation," or what if they are interested in the "artistic expression" of the martial art, or maybe they're interested in a historic martial art that may not have much direct application to any modern idea of your categories (Mounted Lance anyone?), or what if they want a martial art that connects them to their ethnic heritage?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hey brother, we are saying a lot of the same things here.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I tried to picture myself in that scenario.....

Three guys with AKs carjack an old man in a Honda Civic.

They can have it, they've already flunked thug school. They'd probably end up accidently shooting themselves.

Exactly Buka, and that's a logical conclusion. In the moment, under acute stress, sometimes it's hard to think. Even people on this sight have expressed it's a no win situation. The training helps prepared the mind to respond. And this applies to everyone in the vehicle. Also it's not always a simple matter of just giving them the vehicle. There can be other X factors, like having kids in the car. This all plays into specific security training.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training
As the different realms.

The carjacking could fit into a couple of those realms, but not sure where having your bag stolen fits into.
Martial Arts Training: Not a direct relation, IMO. It's related, as those skills transfer over a bit, but it's different than what most martial arts teach/train for.
Self-defense Training: This isn't really self-defense either. You're defended by simply not engaging.
Combatives Training: This is military training right? I suppose retention would fall under hear, but only if he were holding the bag, not if the bag was at a table and he was waiting in line or something along those lines.
Safety Training/Personal Security Training: I must be missing something because these both sound like the same thing to me. And neither are really relevant to a stolen bag-both would say leave the bag alone because you don't know if the robber has a gun, or stole your bag with the intent to lure you out of the store.

Thank you Monkey for working through my words. My 9 hour flight is done, one more short flight and I'm home!

Safety training is typically unrelated to human aggression. Think fire drill, tornado drill, first aid, how to put out a grease fire. This has very little to do with the martial arts. But for me I would consider medical training under safety training. Medical training, specifically TCCC type courses are very important to have, to be well rounded in your ability to survive violent encounters.

I also find safety training is a great place to start training kids.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Context matters a lot. Context means details are important. In certain parts of the world a carjacking can turn into a captivity scenario easily. An even different skill set is needed now, sometimes different training contextualized to the region you are taken in.

There is not a lot of overlap in martial arts training to captivity survival training. Granted most people here will not need this training, but many people in the world do.

I'm fully aware that some people just want a good workout. We could throw fitness training as a subset of martial arts training. Great! But don't confuse it with quality self-defense training.

Can martial arts practiced for fitness be used for self-defense? Yes! Effectively to in many cases! So can learning to swing a hammer, or hunting with a rifle. But it when you get into the details where the weakness becomes apparent.

For instance regarding self-defense. Morally and legally defending yourself is an important component of a well rounded self-defense program. Okay you can load, shoot and hit your target with a shotgun. But you never learned how to do it with a flashlight to identify your target as part of the target engagement process. Now you shot your daughter trying to climb in a window of your house instead of a burglar(this happens). While shooting the gun hunting has direct application to the activity of personal protection, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Context and details matter. In my opinion at least. Success in an activity, especially violent encounters, means sweating the details.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.

He's right, but it's not something you learn from any MA. One thing people are taught to do, which has been caught on camera for both jackings and attempted abductions, is driving right through them (and there's good ways and bad ways to do that, which have to be taught by people with relevant experience)--but it takes a bit of training or life experience to recongnize the signs, which brings us back to "left of bang," human behavioral profiling and analysis.