Clear distinctions between MMA and RBSD.

[GreenieMeanie]

Let's keep this simple.

If it involves footwork, arm drags, joint manipulation, guard, clinch, parrying, chokes, striking, etc:

--it’s MMA and can be "pressure-tested."

If it involves attacks with the intent to cause life-threatening physical trauma, caved-in skulls, cavitation, puncture wounds, lacerations, more than one person attacking you, pre-emption, ambushing, etc:

--it's RBSD

--has to be taught, and can be drilled quite realistically

--cannot perfectly recreate conditions, unless you want to repeatedly kill and send people to the ER, which I hope we can all agree is not an acceptable way to train.

--evolves through recorded instances of violence and trauma, via footage, hospital, law enforcement, and military records. You know it's legit when you see commonalities between those records. As Nigel February has said "If you can't show me footage of it, I don't want to heart it."

 

[drop bear]

So this is your definition?

Or do you feel it is a standard definition.

 

[drop bear]

Jocko is always a fun example

So this is pressure testing as in a MMA definition.

But if Jocko had wanted to kill him. He could have.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

So this is your definition?

Or do you feel it is a standard definition.

Jocko is always a fun example

So this is pressure testing as in a MMA definition.

But if Jocko had wanted to kill him. He could

Im not sure what point you’re trying to make. The distinguishing word here is “intent.” “Opportunity” and “means” also apply.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Jocko is always a fun example

So this is pressure testing as in a MMA definition.

But if Jocko had wanted to kill him. He could have.

I’ve been fairly specific in what I wrote.

 

[drop bear]

Im not sure what point you’re trying to make. The distinguishing word here is “intent.” “Opportunity” and “means” also apply.

Ok. So is jocko practicing a sport you can pressure test. Or a deadly RSBD concept you can't.

Or are they the same thing in this instance.

And if they are the same thing. Does that make sport RSBD.

Which then means RSBD can be tested.

And that test is sport.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Ok. So is jocko practicing a sport you can pressure test. Or a deadly RSBD concept you can't.

Or are they the same thing in this instance.

And if they are the same thing. Does that make sport RSBD.

Which then means RSBD can be tested.

And that test is sport.

Again—I’ve been quite clear about this in my original post, where MMA mechanics apply, and where they don’t apply.

Are you confused, or just being an argumentative troll that happens to say correct things?

 

[jayoliver00]

Let's keep this simple.

If it involves footwork, arm drags, joint manipulation, guard, clinch, parrying, chokes, striking, etc:

--it’s MMA and can be "pressure-tested."

If it involves attacks with the intent to cause life-threatening physical trauma, caved-in skulls, cavitation, puncture wounds, lacerations, more than one person attacking you, pre-emption, ambushing, etc:

--it's RBSD

--has to be taught, and can be drilled quite realistically

--cannot perfectly recreate conditions, unless you want to repeatedly kill and send people to the ER, which I hope we can all agree is not an acceptable way to train.

--evolves through recorded instances of violence and trauma, via footage, hospital, law enforcement, and military records. You know it's legit when you see commonalities between those records. As Nigel February has said "If you can't show me footage of it, I don't want to heart it."

I also teach Self Defense; and if unarmed, then MMA with no rules is the best for SD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again—I’ve been quite clear about this in my original post, where MMA mechanics apply, and where they don’t apply.

Are you confused, or just being an argumentative troll that happens to say correct things?

I think you may be misunderstanding drop bear's position. He's an MMA guy (his favorite response is "Do MMA." And with some solid reason behind that.

He's also someone who has been in situations (as a bouncer and maybe also personal protection, if I remember correctly) that RBSD folks claim to train for.

I think he's pointing out that RBSD and MMA need not have a line between them. Sport context can be used to test skills that apply in a SD context. They needn't be in the exct scenario, and needn't even be the exact finish, so long as they make it obvious that finish was also available.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I'm not quite sure if I'm on track with what the spirit of the thread is here, but let me try.

I think RBSD is a very large umbrella, with a lot of things that fall potentially underneath that umbrella. Including a lot of sport martial arts that can be pressure tested. Certainly aspects of sport martial arts is a piece of the 🧩 puzzle that fits into RBSD.

A lot of other 🧩 pieces go into creating a well rounded skill set for RBSD, including security training, fist aid training, perhaps firearms training and the list goes on.

It takes a lot more puzzle 🧩 pieces for RBSD than it does for training in something like MMA.

With that said, dose everyone needs to spar or compete in sport based martial arts to practice RBSD. No. Because self-defense is for everyone. Not everyone is going to "roll" but everyone should take some responsibility for their own protection.

With that said, to be well rounded and effective when RBSD becomes physical, having pressure tested even some of your skills is ideal. Why? Because all fighting is problem solving. You can not solve every problem you will encounter in a dynamic live attack, but you can learn to solve many of them though combat sports.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I think you may be misunderstanding drop bear's position. He's an MMA guy (his favorite response is "Do MMA." And with some solid reason behind that.

He's also someone who has been in situations (as a bouncer and maybe also personal protection, if I remember correctly) that RBSD folks claim to train for.

I think he's pointing out that RBSD and MMA need not have a line between them. Sport context can be used to test skills that apply in a SD context. They needn't be in the exct scenario, and needn't even be the exact finish, so long as they make it obvious that finish was also available.

Given his adherence to arguing for the sake of arguing, to the point it might as well be trolling, it's hard to tell that he has a point.

There is a line between them--much of the skill and stress innoculation you need for RBSD comes from MMA, but that is not enough to prepare you for the full spectrum of possible violence. There are all these little techniques, modifications of MMA, and tactics that occur in real situations-- but you won't learn any of them, unless you put yourself at great risk in fights, or you study under someone who already has that knowledge.

You can teach yourself to shoot a gun competently without much professional help, and you can easily test it. Yet, to learn about gunfighting, you have to train under someone who has had to kill people with guns, and seen the various ways things can go wrong.

 

[drop bear]

Given his adherence to arguing for the sake of arguing, to the point it might as well be trolling, it's hard to tell that he has a point.

There is a line between them--much of the skill and stress innoculation you need for RBSD comes from MMA, but that is not enough to prepare you for the full spectrum of possible violence. There are all these little techniques, modifications of MMA, and tactics that occur in real situations-- but you won't learn any of them, unless you put yourself at great risk in fights, or you study under someone who already has that knowledge.

You can teach yourself to shoot a gun competently without much professional help, and you can easily test it. Yet, to learn about gunfighting, you have to train under someone who has had to kill people with guns, and seen the various ways things can go wrong.

That isn't how fighting actually works.

It is more along the lines of this.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

That isn't how fighting actually works.

It is more along the lines of this.

Nigel February once said "my skill with knives will always be average, compared to the killers out in the street."

SEALs ran into problems during the beginning of the war in Iraq, because much of their training was based experiences in Vietnam, which were not applicable to the style of urban guerilla warfare they faced. Of course, this isn't the greatest reference, as the manner in which people fight in the street doesn't change the same way--but the point still stands.

If you think that the training makes you as skilled and expert, as the people that do it everyday as a lifestyle, then it goes without saying that you are a fool.

 

[drop bear]

Nigel February once said "my skill with knives will always be average, compared to the killers out in the street."

SEALs ran into problems during the beginning of the war in Iraq, because much of their training was based experiences in Vietnam, which were not applicable to the style of urban guerilla warfare they faced. Of course, this isn't the greatest reference, as the manner in which people fight in the street doesn't change the same way--but the point still stands.

If you think that the training makes you as skilled and expert, as the people that do it everyday as a lifestyle, then it goes without saying that you are a fool.

Who does it every day as a lifestyle?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Who does it every day as a lifestyle?

You asking that question means, you either haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.

 

[drop bear]

You asking that question means, you either haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.

No it doesn't.

Answer the question and you will find out where I am going with this.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

No it doesn't.

Answer the question and you will find out where I am going with this.

If I had to guess, you’re going to make the point, that most people teaching RBSD or claiming to are disconnected from that “lifestyle.” And I wouldn’t disagree with you.

It’s the same story with traditional martial arts. Do your research, know their lineage and backgrounds. Don’t just assume they’re teaching the right stuff.

We’ve been over this, more than once.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You asking that question means, you either haven’t been paying attention for the amount of time you’ve been here, or you just have nothing better to do than argue with me.

Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Your post seems more argumentative than about making a point.

I don’t have patience for dropbear’s usual approach, which shouldnt surprise you given previous conversations.

 

[drop bear]

If I had to guess, you’re going to make the point, that most people teaching RBSD or claiming to are disconnected from that “lifestyle.” And I wouldn’t disagree with you.

It’s the same story with traditional martial arts. Do your research, know their lineage and backgrounds. Don’t just assume they’re teaching the right stuff.

We’ve been over this, more than once.

People in that lifestyle train all sorts of martial arts.

So if I train the same martial arts as them. Then I have the same background.

So believing I have the same tools as some and better tools than others to defend myself. Is a very reasonable conclusion.

And not at all foolish.

And there are real world examples.