Problems with pressure points.

[Ironbear24]

So when my sifu does them on me it hurts a lot and they are very effective but when I do them on other people I fail at them.

In your opinion are pressure points a viable thing to train in? I mean yeah I know they work because they were done on me but, the reason I ask this is because many of them in our style are done during grapples and takedowns, where I could just instead punch or elbow them and do that much easier.

Is it something that is worth screwing up enough times to get right or not really? Either way I have to learn it because he is teaching it, but this question is more of a case of curiosity.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Individual reaction to pressure points varies immensely. I remember once demonstrating a pressure point on a muscular 200 pound guy causing him to collapse in pain. Then a few weeks later I tried demonstrating the same exact technique on a 120 pound young woman who didn't react at all, even though I used twice as much pressure. (She said it was mildly uncomfortable, but not anything she needed to react to.)

Bear in mind that in a real fight, adrenaline can be a hell of a painkiller. Techniques which really hurt when your training partner applies them in a training setting may go unnoticed in the heat of a real fight. I've seen a guy take repeated hard shots to the groin, not react, and go on to knockout his opponent. Half an hour later he was sitting and moaning quietly in pain, but that was after the adrenaline had worn off.

 

[Ironbear24]

Thanks. I'll take that into consideration.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So when my sifu does them on me it hurts a lot and they are very effective but when I do them on other people I fail at them.

In your opinion are pressure points a viable thing to train in? I mean yeah I know they work because they were done on me but, the reason I ask this is because many of them in our style are done during grapples and takedowns, where I could just instead punch or elbow them and do that much easier.

Is it something that is worth screwing up enough times to get right or not really? Either way I have to learn it because he is teaching it, but this question is more of a case of curiosity.

I think they are worth learning, but you can't depend upon them. As Tony pointed out, there's a huge difference in how people react, and adrenaline suppresses pain response. I learn them and teach them because they can be useful, but we don't use them as primary parts of anything. They are additives - if I can manage to get that pressure point on your arm during the technique, the technique has a higher chance of success. If not, I'm still doing the basic technique.

I will say that I find them to take more skill than you'd think. I'll show an "easy" one to a student, walk away, and find them and their partner struggling to make it work.

"Sensei, she doesn't feel this one."
I reach in and do it lightly, and the student reacts immediately to the pain. So now I have to stop and ensure they understand the parts I've forgotten were hard to learn.

 

[Red Sun]

The 1 time a 'pressure point' has put me down is a right hook to the side of the neck. That really sucked.

 

[JR 137]

My own experience with them tells me men are so much more sensitive to them than women. My anecdotal evidence is such...

I taught a karate class as a PE elective at a college I worked at. I taught 12 half semester classes (3 years, 4 sessions per year, about 20 students in each session, about 75% women).

I taught basic pressure points on the arms, neck and face. Incorporated them into wrist grab defenses, fighting off your back, etc. I'd go around and show where they were, gently hitting the points while showing the techniques. I wasn't using the dim mak or any other voodoo pressure points, I was hitting things like the ulnar nerve, carotid sinus, etc.; basically scientifically known points.

When I'd do them to women, they'd almost always look at me like I had 3 heads, or just non-chalantly say "yeah, I feel that." Several times female students said they felt nothing and showed no faith in it. I let them hit me and a few other willing guys very hard on forearm points, and none of us could take it. They'd miss the points occasionally, but after 2 or 3 tries they'd nail it.

Teaching them to guys, they'd get lit up with minimal force. Most common response "that's messed up!"

Pressure points are a mixed bag IMO. I don't believe in the light pressure/tapping KOs. No way you're going to KO someone by hitting a forearm point then tapping a spot on their face between the cheek and nose like George Dillman does unless you've got a form of hypnosis going on. But there are definitely spots you can hit that'll give you a funny bone-like feeling.

As much of a whack job as George Dillman is, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Some of his old stuff and non-KO stuff like defenses from grabs are pretty good. Some of the stuff he did was stuff I (and my teammates) did during wrestling season n high school. This was long before I knew anything about pressure points in martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The 1 time a 'pressure point' has put me down is a right hook to the side of the neck. That really sucked.

Ah, likely the blood pressure monitor in there. A poke (even a soft one) can cause blood pressure to bottom out briefly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is it something that is worth screwing up enough times to get right or not really?

In order to make your skill work, you will need to develop your "finger tip strength (or grip strength)". Until then it won't do you any good.

No matter how good your punch may be, if your punch doesn't have knock down power, your punch is useless.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is it something that is worth screwing up enough times to get right or not really?

I don't know one activity that a person trains in where screwing up isn't part of the learning process. When people train to play an instrument the screw up a lot, but they keep practicing until they get it right. Martial Arts is the same way.

As for the value of pressure points, some techniques are only effective if the pressure point is struck. Techniques that use pressure points are also not a 100% hit success rate. They only serve as a target that you should be directing an attack at. If you strike it then you'll get results, if you miss then you won't get results which means you try again in hopes that you'll hit it after the second or third try.

Not all of the pressure points cause the same pain or reaction. Some pressure points are like striking reflex nerves where if it's struck then the body reacts on it's own even if you try to stop it. Other pressure points can cause pain that can be tolerated. I've been hit in a pressure point on my arm where I instantly lost control of my arm and it went numb. I've also been hit on pressure points where it took multiple shots to make me hurt. Some pressure points shock the system but don't hurt, instead they cause your internal system not to perform properly. Not every pressure point is a touch of death and the majority of them are not as easy to hit on the first try.

I look at pressure points as a bonus. My goal is to strike or press an area while doing a technique. If I can hit that pressure point perfectly then it's a bonus that helps me big time. If I don't hit it then it's not a big deal because the technique will do damage any way, I just won't get the bonus damage.

The 1 time a 'pressure point' has put me down is a right hook to the side of the neck. That really sucked.

lol. I got hit in the side of the neck with a hook and I immediately stop sparring because I didn't know if I was going to pass out or what. All I know is that it was the strangest feeling and that I felt the punch inside my neck and not the outside. I didn't pass out but it made me worry enough to stop in my tracks. I've also been punched at an odd angle in my chest (on the heart side) and it wasn't a big deal but 30 minutes later it felt like the muscles closet to my heart were acting up. The best that I could describe it was irregular muscle spasms that seem to be be getting closer and closer to my heart. It wasn't painful, but I was worried that it would cause a problem if it made it to my heart. That scared me too and I monitored that thing all night. It didn't ease up until 4 hours later. I never had anything travel like that before.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2 pressure points that I like to take advantage on are:

- at the center of your inside upper leg. If you use your knee to strike on this spot, you can force your opponent to move this leg back.
- 1 inch about your elbow joint between the white shin and dark skin. If you grab this point with your thumb, it's very easy to pull your opponent toward you.

 

[Red Sun]

lol. I got hit in the side of the neck with a hook and I immediately stop sparring because I didn't know if I was going to pass out or what. All I know is that it was the strangest feeling and that I felt the punch inside my neck and not the outside. I didn't pass out but it made me worry enough to stop in my tracks.

Don't remind me XP
I wasn't unconscious, but i couldn't move and fell down. My carotid artery was shaking for hours, and i was running on zero energy. I'd hate for it to happen with a bare fist...

 

[Balrog]

Individual reaction to pressure points varies immensely. I remember once demonstrating a pressure point on a muscular 200 pound guy causing him to collapse in pain. Then a few weeks later I tried demonstrating the same exact technique on a 120 pound young woman who didn't react at all, even though I used twice as much pressure. (She said it was mildly uncomfortable, but not anything she needed to react to.)

Bear in mind that in a real fight, adrenaline can be a hell of a painkiller. Techniques which really hurt when your training partner applies them in a training setting may go unnoticed in the heat of a real fight. I've seen a guy take repeated hard shots to the groin, not react, and go on to knockout his opponent. Half an hour later he was sitting and moaning quietly in pain, but that was after the adrenaline had worn off.

I think Mr. Dismukes nailed it. Pressure points are really, really good when they work. You can stop a situation cold with a simple pressure point stun. But if it doesn't work, you better have a plan B to back it up, and probably a plan C as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[Buka]

They seem to work better when you're in control of a situation than when you're not.
As said, different people react differently.
And all pressure point applications are not equal. Some are pretty sweet, though.

 

[Juany118]

In order to make your skill work, you will need to develop your "finger tip strength (or grip strength)". Until then it won't do you any good.

No matter how good your punch may be, if your punch doesn't have knock down power, your punch is useless.

That depends on the pressure point, or your definition of them I suppose, some people may not see these as a "pressure point" I suppose.

A brachial stun, with the back of the wrist or knife hand doesnt require fingers or a lot of force, the same goes for a knee to the common peroneal (roughly in the area of the IT band). A knife hand under the nose or a fist rubbed against the funny bone also take less force than say a straight on KO strike to the nerves at the TMJ. Also a single knuckle strike to the nerve under the biceps (the Musculocutaneous nerve) if struck properly doesn't require any real strength in the individual finger either, though I would suggest building it up so you don't break it if the strike goes awry.

Now, as others said adrenaline may well reduce the pain compliance of some of these, but the ones that actually have an effect on function will probably still have that effect, even if the pain of the strike is reduced.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In order to make your skill work, you will need to develop your "finger tip strength (or grip strength)". Until then it won't do you any good.

No matter how good your punch may be, if your punch doesn't have knock down power, your punch is useless.

Lies! Any or all moves need only give one pause, so that you can go on to the next move.

 

[kuniggety]

I laughed.

As Tony stated, and many others, people have different tolerances for pain. IMO, pain is not the most reliable way to submit someone because of this. I think it was Helio Gracie who famously stated that's why he prefers chokes. People with adrenaline in them will keep fighting with an arm snapped in two. If you cut off the blood flow to a person's brain, down they go.

 

[Juany118]

I laughed.

As Tony stated, and many others, people have different tolerances for pain. IMO, pain is not the most reliable way to submit someone because of this. I think it was Helio Gracie who famously stated that's why he prefers chokes. People with adrenaline in them will keep fighting with an arm snapped in two. If you cut off the blood flow to a person's brain, down they go.

The thing is some of the pressure points aren't just about pain compliance. Striking the brachial plexus actually disrupts blood flow to the brain as well has causing issues with with properly being able to use muscles due to disruption of nerve impulses.

Striking the Common Peroneal, while not effecting the circulatory system does cause temporary muscle dysfunction. You could feel little pain but if struck correctly the leg simply gives out.

These are just two examples of nerve strikes being more about physical effect than pain

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That depends on the pressure point, or your definition of them I suppose, some people may not see these as a "pressure point" I suppose.

A brachial stun, with the back of the wrist or knife hand doesnt require fingers or a lot of force, the same goes for a knee to the common peroneal (roughly in the area of the IT band). A knife hand under the nose or a fist rubbed against the funny bone also take less force than say a straight on KO strike to the nerves at the TMJ. Also a single knuckle strike to the nerve under the biceps (the Musculocutaneous nerve) if struck properly doesn't require any real strength in the individual finger either, though I would suggest building it up so you don't break it if the strike goes awry.

Now, as others said adrenaline may well reduce the pain compliance of some of these, but the ones that actually have an effect on function will probably still have that effect, even if the pain of the strike is reduced.

Agreed. When I talk "pressure points" I'm usually referring to the pain-compliance points activated by grips, etc. I usually refer to brachial stuns, etc. as "nerve strikes" to differentiate them. Obviously, there's a ton of overlap, because I can strike most of the "pressure points", too.

 

[Kickboxer101]

So when my sifu does them on me it hurts a lot and they are very effective but when I do them on other people I fail at them.

In your opinion are pressure points a viable thing to train in? I mean yeah I know they work because they were done on me but, the reason I ask this is because many of them in our style are done during grapples and takedowns, where I could just instead punch or elbow them and do that much easier.

Is it something that is worth screwing up enough times to get right or not really? Either way I have to learn it because he is teaching it, but this question is more of a case of curiosity.

Since it works then obviously yeah there is point training in it. You see that's your problem you think just about punching and kicking and elbowing you think of it simply as a fight you don't think about the legal side sure of course you can just punch the guy but if you use a pressure point to put a guy down it won't look as aggressive as a punch will it.

For example If a 50 year out of shape drunk comes up to you and is mouthing off if you punch him in the face knock his teeth out break his jaw that'll look worse on you but if you put him in a lock it'll look like you simply holding him in place