Joint Locks and Pressure Points

[MJS]

Are these things that you include into your training? Do you feel that they're worth knowing or do you feel that they're more of a waste of time?

IMO, I look at them as two more tools that I have in the box. I don't think that we should seek out a lock, but instead wait until the chance to apply a lock presents itself to us.

As for the pressure points, I'm not convinced of the no touch stuff, and this really isn't where I am looking for the thread to go either. I do think though, that like the locks, there may be many times, ie: during a clinch or grabbing attack, that the opportunity may present itself for one to be applied.

Anyone else have thoughts on these things?

Mike

 

[Drac]

Are these things that you include into your training? Do you feel that they're worth knowing or do you feel that they're more of a waste of time?

Yes they are..I use them A LOT on duty..

 

[HKphooey]

LOVE 'EM!!!!

So many times the opportunity presents itself throughout SD techniques.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

They (Pressure points & Joint Locks)are definately something included in what I do. I too have also used them in the course of work. You have the right idea about them being just a few more tools in the toolbox.

As for the no touch knockouts. Well I have only seen them work on compliant students and have no faith in them working against a non compliant person. They are not something that I practice or teach.

 

[Mustafa]

Are these things that you include into your training? Do you feel that they're worth knowing or do you feel that they're more of a waste of time?

IMO, I look at them as two more tools that I have in the box. I don't think that we should seek out a lock, but instead wait until the chance to apply a lock presents itself to us.

As for the pressure points, I'm not convinced of the no touch stuff, and this really isn't where I am looking for the thread to go either. I do think though, that like the locks, there may be many times, ie: during a clinch or grabbing attack, that the opportunity may present itself for one to be applied.

Anyone else have thoughts on these things?

Mike

Me personally.
I dont have the habit of making locking others, though i my lock myself.
However, in means of self defence, i try to avoid fighting when i have the opportunity, but if my opponent is persistent in whatever he is doing, i end rewarding him with the same thing he gives me. (especially when he gives he goes like
"you or me, when i have a belt"
If you consider the ammount of mistakes the opponent makes, then you cant balme yourself for fighting back.

As for no touch stuff. I dont have any kind of experience with that.
This is a question like, do you belive in ki. My answer is, i havent experienced it (nor tried to).

 

[Drac]

LOVE 'EM!!!!

So many times the opportunity presents itself throughout SD techniques.

I agree 100%..Ask the guys who decided that they were going to push the fat gray haired cop out of their way...

 

[Fluffy]

If you end up on the ground they will be some of your best moves, def worth the time invested in training.

 

[exile]

Are these things that you include into your training? Do you feel that they're worth knowing or do you feel that they're more of a waste of time?

IMO, I look at them as two more tools that I have in the box. I don't think that we should seek out a lock, but instead wait until the chance to apply a lock presents itself to us.

As for the pressure points, I'm not convinced of the no touch stuff, and this really isn't where I am looking for the thread to go either. I do think though, that like the locks, there may be many times, ie: during a clinch or grabbing attack, that the opportunity may present itself for one to be applied.

Anyone else have thoughts on these things?

Mike

Mike---like Brian, Drac and others, I definitely train these, as implicit parts of the TKD poomsae I do. I usually see in a `down block', for example, a wrist grab with the retracting, `chambering' hand and an arm lock, with pressure on the elbow from the forearm moving up to `chamber' the down motion, forcing the attack closer and lower and setting up the arm/neck/throat strike that the down block really represents. The joint locks are crucial I think to most effective techniques recorded in the hyungs/kata of karate-rooted MAs.

What I don't practics is small-joint manipulation type movements. Maybe I should, but that will come later... For the kind of stuff our LEOs need to do, they are probably terrifically useful.

 

[jks9199]

Yes they are..I use them A LOT on duty..

The only catch is that it seems like the people you most want to use them on are the ones who aren't going to feel them...

Had a guy one day who was a wee bit mentally disturbed. Took four of us to drag him out of the house after I arrested him on a domestic... Pressure points didn't matter to him...

 

[Bigshadow]

Are these things that you include into your training? Do you feel that they're worth knowing or do you feel that they're more of a waste of time?

Mike

Certainly do! Yes, I believe they are very important. Not just joint locks, locking up the entire body too! (er well most of it anyway).

 

[Bigshadow]

As for the no touch knockouts. Well I have only seen them work on compliant students and have no faith in them working against a non compliant person. They are not something that I practice or teach.

I gotta agree with you there!

 

[crushing]

Joint locks and pressure points are pretty big in my training. Just this week, one of my teachers even recommended purchasing the Anatomy Coloring Book to help learn about the body and keep track of the pressure points we will be learning about in class.

 

[DavidCC]

The only catch is that it seems like the people you most want to use them on are the ones who aren't going to feel them...

Had a guy one day who was a wee bit mentally disturbed. Took four of us to drag him out of the house after I arrested him on a domestic... Pressure points didn't matter to him...

PAIN is not relevant

if you use the points correctly it DOES NOT MATTER if they can feel it or not. if you are only looking for "pain compliance" then I can see why you might think this is not a very useful category of technique.

 

[Drac]

The only catch is that it seems like the people you most want to use them on are the ones who aren't going to feel them...

Had a guy one day who was a wee bit mentally disturbed. Took four of us to drag him out of the house after I arrested him on a domestic... Pressure points didn't matter to him...

Been there TOO MANY times...Had a Teenager that had been smoking "wet" cigarettes..Same scenerio you posted...

 

[Bigshadow]

PAIN is not relevant

if you use the points correctly it DOES NOT MATTER if they can feel it or not.

Great point! Joint locks are about control...

 

[charyuop]

I do Tai Chi and yes there are many joint lock in it.
Unfortunately my teacher doesn't train for MA purposes, but I practice application with my wife (who had few years of MA training) and with a friend who has years in Aikido.
I used to think Locks were great to control the opponent, but I also (of course I have never been locked by a Master, and that might make a difference) found out that with the right movement it is easy to get out of joint locks, standing up not grappling, and most of them I can even turn the situation to my favour. I managed to get out of several joint locks and send the opponent to his butt or turned it into a joint lock into my favour.
The joint lock that I found most effective on me is the ones where I end up with a wrist bent and the arm bent behind my back or finger locks (I hate the latter, they so painful that paralize you).

On one side they are the best because not every punch can be a knock out punch, but if the opponent doens't know how to get out every lock 100% reaches its purpose. Moreover in case of further need a joint lock can lead to a broken bone or injured tendin that will make you get out a winner.
On the other hand tho, a joint lock will leave you a certain amount of time very close to the opponent and thus at risk for concealed weapons. Moreover some people don't hurt at all joint locks (like my wife, you can twist her wrist till it breaks and she doesn't feel any pain) or the opponent can be under some drugs and don't feel the pain.

In my opinion if you do a joint lock leave always an option open to strike your opponent at every single movement he/she might do.

 

[The Kidd]

I think joint locks are a must. I teach them and use them. I teach alot of kids ranging from the ages of 8 to 16, there is a less likely chance they will get into trouble if they put someone into a hold in school who has tried to hurt them than if they knock or kick the guys block off then both parties get into trouble, I teach (to my higher belts) to hold the person until an adult gets there. Now if they are on the street then do what you have to do.
I also use locks because I work in a school and I cannot go around punching or kickking the students so when I have to take control of a violent situation then the best way to get a 15 year old males attention who thinks he can kick everybodys butt is a good wrist lock and he becomes cooperative rather quickly.

 

[charyuop]

LOL I don't know why Kidd, but your words made me smile. I have pictured you the teacher walking down the hall and twisting wrists here and there...all the students moving to the sides as you pass by...

But I agree it can be something usefull for kids in school. Blocking the bully in a lock and calling for the teacher would save them alot of troubles.

 

[jks9199]

Great point! Joint locks are about control...

There's a difference between a joint lock and a pressure point. Joint locks can work even if the person doesn't feel the pain -- but they may lead to serious injury in those cases. This isn't always something that's practical for law enforcement officers; we can't cripple someone just because they're not complying.

As to some of the other sorts of pressure points (no touch knockouts and the like)... Neat ideas. Maybe they work. Maybe they don't. I'm (obviously) far from convinced on them!

But there's another concern with locks and pressure points... You get the guy in a wonderful arm bar, and he's begging you to let him go. But just a second ago, he was trying to hurt you... As a cop -- it's easy. Cuff 'em and stuff 'em. What about a civilian? Where do you go with it?

I once watched someone teaching a beautifuly, elegant self defense move. It was truly a thing of beauty to see it applied, and their partner even wasn't simply going with it. But it had way too many steps unless someone was going to practice it regularly... And, more importantly, it ended with the defender holding the attacker. There was no way out of it! I guess if anyone ever actually used it, they had to wait until some passerby called the cops, then try to explain what happened!

Sure -- there are times when that's all you want to do, like if it's a drunk buddy. But there are also times when you need to go further; self defense is about stopping the bad guy from harming you and getting away, not subdueing him for the cops.

(And since this is drifting off topic -- that's where I'll leave it. If we want to go further, we can start another thread.)

In other words -- pressure points and joint locks have a very good place in any martial artists training. But they aren't the only thing to train!

 

[searcher]

I include them. Not every situation requires a higher level of brutality. I am not saying that joint locks and pressure points are not brutal, but having the option to refrain from striking another person is an essential tool. You run LESS risk of permantly damaging somebody with a joint lock or pressure point than with a strike. Again, I am not saying that it cannot happen, but there is less risk of it.