Principles and Technique

Xue Sheng

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There is such a thing as training in principle, and such a thing as training in technique. If you do not train in technique, but only fill your heart with principle, your body and hands will not function. Even though you know principle, you must make yourself perfectly free in the use of the technique. And even though you may wield a sword that you carry with you well, if you unclear on the deeper aspects of principles, you will likely fall short in proficiency. Technique and principles are just like two wheels of a cart - Zen Monk, Takuan Sōhō

The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman by Takuan Sōhō


Do you think this is still true today in Martial Arts?

Do you feel one is more important than the other?

Or....

Do you feel the whole thing is a waste of time?
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Understanding principles and elements is essential for a good martial practitioner. Maybe not as much at a lower level but definitely for a seasoned practitioner. Yet to be able to apply principles and various elements one has to have the training to be able to do it effectively. Particularly to do it over and over again. So training in technique is essential if you want consistent results. In a physical skill like the Martial Sciences training is essential because these skills diminish quickly if you are not training! So while someone who does not understand the principles could maybe make things work they may not be able to make them work consistently over and over again. Yet someone who understands the principles and technique should have the ability to make it work over and over again. So if you want to be effective consistently then you should work to understand the principles in your system and train the technique religiously. So in the end they just like two wheels of a cart.

Cool find Xue. I would hope that others will comment on this even if they might not agree. ;)
 

simplicity

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"Someone new to martial arts we feel technique as a must and a old timer will understand technique will get ones azz killed"... John M
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If you can

- apply technique, you will understand principle.
- understand principle, you may not be able to execute technique.

For example, if you can do a spin hook kick, you will understand the principle to "use body to pull/push your limbs". If you understand that principle, you may not be able to do it because a good spin hook kick will require single leg balance, leg flexibility, body spinning, ... that are not addressed in the principle.

The principle approach may work for the striking art.

Principle of punch:

- Your fist meets your opponent's face.

Technique of punch:

- Step in.
- Your fist meets your opponent's face.

It won't work for the throwing art.

Principle of hip throw:

- Bend forward and throw your opponent over your back.

Technique of hip throw:

- Wrap your opponent's right arm with your left arm.
- Deflect his left arm with your right arm.
- Move your right foot in front of his right foot.
- Move your left foot in front of his left foot.
- Wrap your right arm on his waist.
- Raise from low horse stance to high horse stance to lift his feet off the ground.
- Bend forward and throw him over your back.

The technique just involves with too much small detail (such as hands position, feet position, correct order, ...) that principle won't be able to cover them all.
 
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seasoned

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Technique can be practiced over and over for many years, but without martial arts principles of movement, which will teach economy of movement, along with proper power distribution, you will reach a plateau. Technique will carry you to old age but principles will sustain you there.
 

Hyoho

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The techniques are empty without having mastered the key elements in fundamentals. Repetition of 10,000 times is not enough.

The principles can be found in old text, Chinese, Japanese whatever. But putting them into practice is something else. Many say pick up your weapon and fight for god and country. Miyamoto Musashi said, "Learn the heart. If you can't learn the heart, don't pick up the sword".
 

TaiChiTJ

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I think this relates to why many people get so upset when the subject of video learning comes up on this site.

Experienced MA people easily grasp the fact that a principle can be explained with video technology, a technique demonstrating that principle can be shown and then for that video student to jump to the conclusion that those two things are all that is needed is a big mistake.

The technique demonstrating that principle needs to be tried on a variety of people. People who vary in size and length and strength of their body's limbs, as well as people who vary in the speed of their response time. All kinds of angles change when these differences are taken into account.

This is why those teachers with video programs do their students good when they schedule group classes and conferences around the country, where students who have studied in their living rooms by themselves or with a small group can try their movement patterns on a wide range of fellow martial artists who may bring some surprises to the techniques they practiced in a rote manner in front of the tv.

There is simply no substitute for live, spontaneous interaction.
 

K-man

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If I had a dollar for each time I say this I could retire rich. :)

It depends! It depends on your definition of principle. If you look at the definition of KFW above, then you are operating at the micro level. Certainly there are principles that apply to each technique but how important is it to know the principle behind a technique. If I punch some one in the head with my fist I really don't need to think much about it assuming that technically I make a proper fist and deliver it with technically correct body movement. Does the same apply to a throw? I would suggest so. There are lots more technical intricacies in the throw but once I have mastered the technique what principles do I need?

To me, principles are much broader and in my experience apply right across the MA spectrum. I would suggest a beginner learns however many techniques and applies them to the best of his knowledge and ability regardless of principle. Principle runs much deeper and, again just IMHO, as your understanding of principle increases so does your ability to perform the technique. At the top end of the scale I would even go to say that the principle transcends the technique. That is in line with my understanding of Shuhari.

What do principles mean to me? Well, for starters there is the importance of developing and maintaining your centre. This is not a technique that you learn but when you apply the principle to your technique it supercharges it. Another would be the way you move. If you just step from one position to another your movement is quite stilted. You see that all the time in beginners and it is actively taught in some styles and I consider that wrong. It can appear to be 'strength' but in practice it really takes away from the effectiveness of the technique. Once your stance relaxes you can move smoothly from position to position, it is hard for an opponent to redirect you and your kicks and strikes become more powerful. Once again, a principle making technique more effective. There are numerous principles that apply across the board, these being just two.
:asian:
 

Zero

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If you can

- apply technique, you will understand principle.
- understand principle, you may not be able to execute technique.

For example, if you can do a spin hook kick, you will understand the principle to "use body to pull/push your limbs". If you understand that principle, you may not be able to do it because a good spin hook kick will require single leg balance, leg flexibility, body spinning, ... that are not addressed in the principle.

The principle approach may work for the striking art.

Principle of punch:

- Your fist meets your opponent's face.

Technique of punch:

- Step in.
- Your fist meets your opponent's face.

It won't work for the throwing art.

Principle of hip throw:

- Bend forward and throw your opponent over your back.

Technique of hip throw:

- Wrap your opponent's right arm with your left arm.
- Deflect his left arm with your right arm.
- Move your right foot in front of his right foot.
- Move your left foot in front of his left foot.
- Wrap your right arm on his waist.
- Raise from low horse stance to high horse stance to lift his feet off the ground.
- Bend forward and throw him over your back.

The technique just involves with too much small detail (such as hands position, feet position, correct order, ...) that principle won't be able to cover them all.

Not sure about that at all if I am following you right.

The principle of certain techniques in a throwing style, such as a hip throw, is simply to "unbalance opponent, use optimal leverage, take opponent to ground" (probably actually, just the first two). This (these) principle(s) are perfect for a throwing art and convey the requirement to novice and experienced practitioner alike. You can have "principles within principles" (which may even include "exceptions to principles, which are principles in themselves) but the "smaller details" as you call them are the execution of that principal by means of technique.

It is not a question of too much detail. In fact the level of detail to "properly" execute such a throw is perfectly complimented by the "apparent" simplicity of the principle itself - it is an easily accessible concept to keep in mind, without which (and I mean by not adhering to the principle) performing a perfect throw becomes an impossibility.

Principles apply to all arts and to all levels of complication and technique within such arts.
Amitabha
 

Argus

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This may depend heavily on the art.

Coming from a highly principle based system such as Wing Chun, I tend to judge any "technique" based on how well it lines up with the principles of the system, and general common sense / safety concerns. Even in WC, people really do overlook the principles and get too caught up in techniques and preconceived notions of "if he does that I'll do this." At the end of the day, we really should just be reprogramming ourselves and forming good habits, so that we'll respond naturally and effectively when we need to. Technique, insofar as developing solid skill and applying the principles you learn is very important; learning the right positions, movements, body mechanics, and sensitivity to hit effectively and respond appropriately. But technique should yield to principle, and should be for the purpose of enabling one to apply those principles effectively in an unrehearsed, spontaneous situation.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not sure about that at all if I am following you right.

The principle of certain techniques in a throwing style, such as a hip throw, is simply to "unbalance opponent, use optimal leverage, take opponent to ground" (probably actually, just the first two). This (these) principle(s) are perfect for a throwing art and convey the requirement to novice and experienced practitioner alike. You can have "principles within principles" (which may even include "exceptions to principles, which are principles in themselves) but the "smaller details" as you call them are the execution of that principal by means of technique.

It is not a question of too much detail. In fact the level of detail to "properly" execute such a throw is perfectly complimented by the "apparent" simplicity of the principle itself - it is an easily accessible concept to keep in mind, without which (and I mean by not adhering to the principle) performing a perfect throw becomes an impossibility.

Principles apply to all arts and to all levels of complication and technique within such arts.
Amitabha

Not sure I understand what's your concern here.

If you can apply a hip throw technique, you will understand the hip throw principle. If you understand the hip throw principle, you may not be able to do the hip throw technique.
 

Zero

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Not sure I understand what's your concern here.

If you can apply a hip throw technique, you will understand the hip throw principle. If you understand the hip throw principle, you may not be able to do the hip throw technique.

Thanks, my concern, unless I have misunderstood you, is that you seem to be saying that "principles" do not apply overly well to a throwing art (or from your reasoning, any art or skill set involving complicated techniques or complicated moves within a certain technique). That's my concern (although don't worry, I am not that concerned). Whether or not you can execute the technique(s) itself does not mean there is not an overarching principle(s) involved in that art, it does not even mean that you do not understand the principle.

And technically, just because you can execute a technique, such as a hip throw, does not mean you understand or have an appreciation of the principle at all - you may have copied and copied and practiced and practiced that move until you have it down pat but you may never have put any thought into (or have been told/explained) the principle. You can be acting essentially like an automaton, which can mean you are unable to adapt and move away from that particular throw/technique and apply the skills - and concepts - to other situations. And when your throw is negated/countered or in certain situations proves ineffective, you may not be able to self-assess/self-correct/adapt (this really does occur in the MA world and is unfortunately not overly uncommon in practitioners).
 

Fritz

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I try to strive to use techniques as a way of learning principals. Techs, waza, or whatever are the language that conveys the principals and ideals of the school/style/ryu you are studying to learn.

In the beginning a wrist lock is just a wrist lock.

Later on a wrist lock is about what it does to your training partner, how it messes up their structure and movement, which is then replicated through other techniques and expressions since you know what to look for.

And then finally it is not about that wrist lock at all, but the outcome that you replicate by any movement.

Of course Unfettered Mind is talking about much more, but to me it sounds like Shu Ha Ri.

As long as we don’t jump ahead of the line going from Shu to Ri it will be fine.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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unless I have misunderstood you, is that you seem to be saying that "principles" do not apply overly well to a throwing art.

I think you misunderstood my statement.

The basic principle of the throwing art is to "move your opponent's center to be outside of his base" or to "push/pull the upper body down and hook/kick the leg up." It depends on which level detail that the principle tries to cover. Can anybody be able to learn the throwing art just from this simple "principle". Maybe not. So this basic principle is divided into more than 60 different small principles and "foot sweep" is one of them. The "foot sweep" principle can map into more than 30 different techniques. It's like a tree that starts from it's root.

A good instructor will teach a technique along with the principle used in that technique. A instructor will not teach a principle and asks his students to figure out the techniques.
 

SENC-33

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After 3 decades I have found the most important elements are movement, breathing, relaxing and knowing yourself. Your mind and body are connected and both are designed to defend you naturally.....I learned more and became much more efficient when I got out of the way and allowed my instincts to create the technique for me. This becomes easier to accomplish when you have some sort of structure to pull from.
 

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