Okinawan karate is practiced like Japanese Karate says Patrick McCarthy

[Makalakumu]

I recently posted a few articles which might be of interest to you as they discuss the historical nature surrounding the origins and subsequent development of Karate: In no special order they can be located here...

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/3/29_Was_Siamese_Boxing_[_シャム拳闘]_the_original_source_of_Okinawan_Tigwa_[手小].html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/9/30_Matsuyama_Koen_[Park]_Theory.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/...Entries/2011/4/4_The_Ben_Ryder_Interview.html

Hope this helps. :asian:

Thanks for the reading. I appreciate it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I recently posted a few articles which might be of interest to you as they discuss the historical nature surrounding the origins and subsequent development of Karate: In no special order they can be located here...

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/3/29_Was_Siamese_Boxing_[_シャム拳闘]_the_original_source_of_Okinawan_Tigwa_[手小].html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/9/30_Matsuyama_Koen_[Park]_Theory.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/...Entries/2011/4/4_The_Ben_Ryder_Interview.html

Hope this helps. :asian:

Do you have any resources on what happened to the healing aspects of karate? Why aren't those taught anymore?

 

[Patrick McCarthy]

I think a combination of basic first aid knowledge for simple injury management, an attending paramedic or ring-side doctor at competitions, and or simply a quick 911/000 call for medical emergencies, have played a role in the changing outcomes of the fighting arts.

Sadly, I know of no official documents explaining the lack of interest with the holistic aspects of Karate. Yet, in spite of the absence of historical testimony, I'm confident that war, advancements in modern medicine, a shift in training outcomes and the competitive element are collectively responsible for its decline. In my 9-year study/translation of the Bubishi, it became obvious just how important the healing aspect of the fighting arts was during that time. I believe that clan/family-based fighting arts, whose transmissions have become part of hereditary succession, and the scant TCM-like teachings found in some Chinese traditions, are the only two streams which have systematically kept alive such practices today.

Finally, I can't help but wonder if the modern MA's industry, seemingly dominated by under-qualified/inexperienced instructors, the American McDojo template, extreme martial arts competitions, gi/no-gi submission sports, gladiatorial cage matches, and the always improving RBSD-methods, are also responsible for why such holistic teachings, and the art in general for that matter, are destined to remain locked in the annals of time?

 

[oftheherd1]

Checked the video and while he may have a point about the influences of japanese karate into okinawan karate, you have to remember that to him this is also a sales gimmick: basically, what he's saying that everyone else is doing it wrong and he's the only one with the authentic methods. And I must say that is just :BSmeter: It all comes down to how you train and what your instructors can teach you.

Just as an example, here's a demo of Seibukan karate a few weeks back in here in Helsinki

Thanks for the link. I found it iteresting. I think those folk and Hapkidoist would enjoy each other's company.

 

[Patrick McCarthy]

Is there a question here?

 

[Makalakumu]

I think a combination of basic first aid knowledge for simple injury management, an attending paramedic or ring-side doctor at competitions, and or simply a quick 911/000 call for medical emergencies, have played a role in the changing outcomes of the fighting arts.

Sadly, I know of no official documents explaining the lack of interest with the holistic aspects of Karate. Yet, in spite of the absence of historical testimony, I'm confident that war, advancements in modern medicine, a shift in training outcomes and the competitive element are collectively responsible for its decline. In my 9-year study/translation of the Bubishi, it became obvious just how important the healing aspect of the fighting arts was during that time. I believe that clan/family-based fighting arts, whose transmissions have become part of hereditary succession, and the scant TCM-like teachings found in some Chinese traditions, are the only two streams which have systematically kept alive such practices today.

Finally, I can't help but wonder if the modern MA's industry, seemingly dominated by under-qualified/inexperienced instructors, the American McDojo template, extreme martial arts competitions, gi/no-gi submission sports, gladiatorial cage matches, and the always improving RBSD-methods, are also responsible for why such holistic teachings, and the art in general for that matter, are destined to remain locked in the annals of time?

This is something I've thought of a lot, but haven't really had much information in order to confirm my suspicions. At one time, karate had a very robust healing curriculum. Now, it does not. In America, and in many other parts of the world, this probably could draw a lot more people into the art, considering how popular alternative healing practices are becoming.

It's also one of the reasons I started cross training in Danzan Ryu Jujutsu. Not only does it trace roots to some very famous karate masters, this martial art has a very robust healing curriculum intertwined with its self defense techniques. Students learn massage, acupuncture, herbology, and kiai for healing purposes. When I compare it to the Bubishi, I'm learning a lot of the same stuff, which is probably the best I can do at this time in my life.

That said, I had the pleasure of meeting a karate master in the Detroit area who was very knowledgeable about making various herbal mixtures for his "old bones" and other people who needed it. Something tells me that the healing arts aren't dead in karate. It's just hard to find.

I really respect your work, Mr. McCarthy. Your translation of the Bubishi illustrated for me what a holistic martial art would look like and it changed my practice of karate. I became a better student of it, because of this work.

I hope others can crack the book with a little less ego and analyze their own practice as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is there a question here?

Mr. Goodin is a sensei that I very much respect out here in Hawaii. He was the impetus behind the massive collection of rare karate books that was donated to the UH Manoa library, something I've also been able to learn a lot from

He wrote this article, which I thought pertained to this thread.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

Lost in Translation. Kata are sequences of techniques, presumably ones the creator (or modifiers) of the kata had found to be particularly effective. Today we know the names of the kata and the names of each technique and stance present in the kata. Fukyugata Ichi (created by Matsubayashi-Ryu founder Shoshin Nagamine in 1940), for example, begins with a left downward block (gedan barai or gedan uke) in a left zenkutsu dachi, followed by a right middle punch (chudan tsuki) in a right shizentai dachi. See: The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata. Can you visualize this?


That was a trick! Once the movements of a kata are identified as specific techniques, the meanings become fixed. A "block" has a certain meaning, as does a "punch." A stance has a certain configuration and weight distribution. A dynamic process is reduced to a series of still photographs.


We assume that techniques and movements have always had names. The teachers of old were much less likely to verbalize or write down such things. They would demonstrate techniques and say "like this." The student would follow and generally not ask any questions. If the student asked for clarification, the teacher would often reply, "I already said, like this." The teacher was unlikely to elaborate verbally.


Words became particularly necessary when books about Karate started to be written in the 1920s. Each technique had to be named to accompany the proper picture or photograph. Often names were just descriptive or made up. If the teacher showed a punch to the face, the author (in his language) might have used the term "face punch." Or he might have used "upper level punch" or "rising punch." But the odds are that his teacher used no term at all (except "like this.")


But wait a minute. Suppose instead of merely punching, the teacher actually poked the attacker in the eyes, closed his fingers, and followed through with a punch. Should this be written down? Perhaps the author of the book would leave out the eye poke because it was not quite suitable for the general readership (we can't have children going around poking eyes). Such a gruesome technique might offend the publisher (who probably thought that Kendo was a more noble art). Karate teachers had to overcome widespread prejudice against and misinformation about their art during this time period. Besides, this aspect of the technique could be practiced by the teacher's advanced students who didn't really need a book anyway.


Editorial choices aside, the very act of naming techniques presents a very real danger of limiting them in terms of performance and applications. My sensei, Katsuhiko Shinzato, is a professor of linguistics in Okinawa. Although fluent in both Japanese and English, and an established expert in linguistics, he resists any requests to label techniques or body dynamics processes. "In order for the body to move freely," he says, "the mind must not be fixed."


Once you name a technique, you limit it -- you limit its performance and potential applications.

This seems to describe very succinctly how Okinawan karate became Japanese karate, IMO. What are your thoughts?

 

[Patrick McCarthy]

I couldn't agree with you more; this holistic aspect [and several others I can think of] could very well attract a 'different' audience to the art. I was a lecturer at the Australian College of Natural Medicine for 7-years and can testify to how popular TCM and alternative healing practices have become. I have no doubt that there are many Karate enthusiasts [instructors and students alike] who are very knowledgeable about alternative healing practices, possibly even OMD-accredited; however, like you, I think they are far from the mainstream.


BTW, I know of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu illustrious heritage as my former jujutsu instructor was Prof Wally Jay [Small Circle] who studied directly under Okazaki Soke. I greatly respect it and those who are dedicated to its study.


Thank you for the compliment on my Bubishi-related work; it was a work of joy [in spite of the head-banging difficulties it continually presented]. Even to this day, I continue to get something extra each time I read it. Like you, I too became a better student because of it.

BTW, having trained with Prof Shinzato in Okinawa nearly thirty years ago, and being the translator of Nagamine Shoshin's book [Tales of Okinawa's Greatest Masters], along with being a colleague of Charles Goodin's, I cannot argue with your sources

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I think he is very correct in his analysis. Karate used to be a "family" type training and was more informal. To promote it to the japanese they created the rank structure and more "military" type training we see and think of today. They also introduced the sport aspect of karate and started to create drills to support this and make it for school children.

Gichin Funakoshi didn't show many grappling aspects of karate to differentiate it from Judo. He highlighted only the punching and kicking aspects and how it was different from what the japanese already knew.

Yeah, you are right on. To further add, it was in the early 1900's, Itosu decided to introduce Karate into Elementary Schools in Okinawa, but he didn't want show school kids the deadly techniques so he created the Pinan/Heian katas and didn't teach any bunkai to them therefore the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence was being thrown out the window.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I ended up digging through this article a read a few years back called A Brief History of Kata by Iain Abernethy.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata

 

[Patrick McCarthy]

You might also be interested in these ...

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

and one called, "Myth Busting," located on my website www.koryu-uchinadi.com located under "RESOURCES," then click on "INTERESTING READING" and then click on "MYTH BUSTING."

 

[Jason Striker II]

Unfortunately, I think McCarthy Sensei is right about the "reverse influence". The main point, to me anyway, is that it's just easier for the Okinawan Sensei to follow a mass-instruction pattern in large classes, rather than the classical personal-attention model.

 

[chinto]

To a larger extent then you may think, it is a function of the particular dojo you train at and the Sensei who teaches there. Some are more militaristic then others.

 

[TimoS]

it's just easier for the Okinawan Sensei to follow a mass-instruction pattern in large classes, rather than the classical personal-attention model.

True. On the other hand, I don't think that the Okinawan sensei often teach really large classes, except during seminars. Last summer I attended a seminar by Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei and during one class all we really did was one particular combination, because he wanted to check, however briefly, each and everyone of us doing it and if I remember correctly, there were more than 200 people there

 

[Jason Striker II]

I ended up digging through this article a read a few years back called A Brief History of Kata by Iain Abernethy.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata

You might also be interested in these ...

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

and one called, "Myth Busting," located on my website www.koryu-uchinadi.com located under "RESOURCES," then click on "INTERESTING READING" and then click on "MYTH BUSTING."

I am SO damn sorry - I meant to thank the two members above for linking those two excellent articles!