How much karate inside TKD?

[Manny]

As long as I know, in the begining of TKD it has alot of karate techs and moves, in fact some of the masters of that era like for example Gen.Choi were karatekas and the poomsaes of those days were very japanese, but, now in these days how much karate do think is insdie TKD?

My point of view is that TKD has some moves that resemble japanese karate for example the horse stance, the way we perform the reverse punch, in fact many blocks, etc, yes it's true the way we kicking is not the same but everithing else I tyhink has resemblances of japanese karate.

TKD was invented in the mid 50's, japanese karate (Funakoshi) is about mid 20's or early 30's and we must not forget Korea was ocupied by the japaneses and the only martial arts taught those days were JUDO, KARATE DO and ken do for example.

Manny

 

[Uncle]

That's like asking how much daito ryu is in aikido. It's not that straightforward. Taekwondo started as karate. From what I've seen though pretty much all taekwondo has completely disregarded all of the foundational kata and most if not all of the movement, never mind the techniques, from karate. Then again a lot of so called karate schools have too.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

As long as I know, in the begining of TKD it has alot of karate techs and moves, in fact some of the masters of that era like for example Gen.Choi were karatekas and the poomsaes of those days were very japanese, but, now in these days how much karate do think is insdie TKD?

My point of view is that TKD has some moves that resemble japanese karate for example the horse stance, the way we perform the reverse punch, in fact many blocks, etc, yes it's true the way we kicking is not the same but everithing else I tyhink has resemblances of japanese karate.

TKD was invented in the mid 50's, japanese karate (Funakoshi) is about mid 20's or early 30's and we must not forget Korea was ocupied by the japaneses and the only martial arts taught those days were JUDO, KARATE DO and ken do for example.

Manny

I think there are some movements universal to martial arts. At the very least how many are taught today. When I took a few lessons in karate, we hand horse stances, when I did TKD for oh 6-8 years we had horse stances, now in my Shaolin-Do classes we have horse stances. Not just in the external training but even in the taiji training, though it's much different when used in taiji it's still essentially a horse stances IMO.

just my thoughts. Consider a punch or a front kick, and how different are they really from style to style.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think there are some movements universal to martial arts. At the very least how many are taught today. When I took a few lessons in karate, we hand horse stances, when I did TKD for oh 6-8 years we had horse stances, now in my Shaolin-Do classes we have horse stances. Not just in the external training but even in the taiji training, though it's much different when used in taiji it's still essentially a horse stances IMO.

just my thoughts. Consider a punch or a front kick, and how different are they really from style to style.

I'm not sure that "universal" is really quite the right word. The horse stance is widespread in a number of Chinese styles as well as in karate (which was influenced by certain Chinese systems) and in TKD (which was derived from karate). It's unsuprising to find it in Shaolin Do, which is an eclectic mashup of techniques derived from other arts. On the other hand, you won't find the horse stance in boxing or in BJJ or in kendo or in Bujinkan taijutsu or in a number of other arts.

As far as how different a punch can be from system to system, we've had that discussion before and the consensus is that it can be pretty different.

With regards to the original question, I would imagine that a lot would depend on who was teaching the art. TKD as it was originally formulated was pretty much just Shotokan with a different name. TKD as it is practiced in the Olympics today is pretty much its own thing with not a lot of resemblance to karate. I suspect you can find instructors out there teaching something called TKD at various points along that spectrum. I have no idea how it looks at the "average" dojang these days - it's been about 26 years since I last practiced any TKD.

 

[Blaze Dragon]

I'm not sure that "universal" is really quite the right word. The horse stance is widespread in a number of Chinese styles as well as in karate (which was influenced by certain Chinese systems) and in TKD (which was derived from karate). It's unsuprising to find it in Shaolin Do, which is an eclectic mashup of techniques derived from other arts. On the other hand, you won't find the horse stance in boxing or in BJJ or in kendo or in Bujinkan taijutsu or in a number of other arts.

As far as how different a punch can be from system to system, we've had that discussion before and the consensus is that it can be pretty different.

With regards to the original question, I would imagine that a lot would depend on who was teaching the art. TKD as it was originally formulated was pretty much just Shotokan with a different name. TKD as it is practiced in the Olympics today is pretty much its own thing with not a lot of resemblance to karate. I suspect you can find instructors out there teaching something called TKD at various points along that spectrum. I have no idea how it looks at the "average" dojang these days - it's been about 26 years since I last practiced any TKD.

I stand corrected, "universal" would not be a good word to use. Just meant that you will often see the same stances in other systems. Though I think some influence could have been around during the creation. I personally think that alot of the original arts are just plain good stuff so other people came up with essentially the same move. ie people ride horses all over so the horse stance is something alot of people could come up with I would imagine.

as to the punch I'll not argue I was just saying, for example the reverse punch. When my dad taught me boxing, when I went to karate as a kid, when I went to TKD, and TSP, and then again in SD. the reverse punch was used, and I felt like it was the same technique, although some different polish on it. As in boxing was big on shoulder rotation. karate big on stance and shift the side of your body with the punch. TKD snapping with the hip. (at least as I was shown)

 

[Earl Weiss]

First explain what is and what is not TKD, then explain what is and what is not Karate, get everyone to agree with your explanations and then perhaps you'll have an answer.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

...how much karate do think is insdie TKD?

Depends on who is teaching it, and how it is taught.

 

[StudentCarl]

When I put on my Taekwondo uniform at my Taekwondo school and am taught by my Taekwondo master, then I am doing Taekwondo. :yoda:

 

[arnisador]

Original TKD was 100% Japanese Karate, after WWII. It's changed a lot since then and is surely its own art now but try to explain the similarities in the forms by any other means.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Original TKD was 100% Japanese Karate, after WWII. It's changed a lot since then and is surely its own art now but try to explain the similarities in the forms by any other means.

Well, no, I don't think this is true. Amoung the original kwans were Masters trained in Karate, Judo as well as some degree of influence from Chinese arts. GGM Hwang Kee, for example, spent time working on the railroad and training in China.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Original TKD was 100% Japanese Karate, after WWII. It's changed a lot since then and is surely its own art now but try to explain the similarities in the forms by any other means.

Since the name "TKD" was never used before 1955 or so, I fail to see any reason for the WWII reference.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well, no, I don't think this is true. Amoung the original kwans were Masters trained in Karate, Judo as well as some degree of influence from Chinese arts. GGM Hwang Kee, for example, spent time working on the railroad and training in China.

GM Byung-in Yoon, who founded the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu (the forerunner of the Chang Moo Kwan) also was skilled in Chu'an fa and that influenced his teachings, as well.

Pax,

Chris

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Considering I was solely taught, and I still solely teach all of the Japanese rooted forms (Kicho hyungs 1-3, Pyung Ahn hyungs 1-5, Bassai, Naihanchi 1-3, Chinto, Kang Song Kun, etc.. .), I would say there is still a heavy influence/ presence of Karate in the Taekwondo that I practice and teach. But as Mr. Weiss stated above, that entirely depends on your definitions of TKD and Karate.

The curriculum I grew up in had many of the techniques found in bunkai, but were not taught from the forms. They were introduced in 1 step sparring and self defense practice. It wasn't until my exposure to karate (and bunkai) that I realized the techniques from my 1 step sparring and self defense practice were found in my own forms.

That said, there are many other influences that make up the Taekwondo that I practice (Moo Duk Kwan TKD), so the argument that it is just karate with a different name doesn't hold any weight IMHO.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The curriculum I grew up in had many of the techniques found in bunkai, but were not taught from the forms. They were introduced in 1 step sparring and self defense practice. It wasn't until my exposure to karate (and bunkai) that I realized the techniques from my 1 step sparring and self defense practice were found in my own forms.

It is this aspect that can truly make Karate, and by extension TKD very deep and rich arts. One could truly spend months, years or even a lifetime learning the contents in just one or a few kata/forms.

 

[Gorilla]

We practice both TKD (Song Moo Kwan) and Karate (Shotokan). Our lineage to Funakoshi is shorter in TKD!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It is this aspect that can truly make Karate, and by extension TKD very deep and rich arts. One could truly spend months, years or even a lifetime learning the contents in just one or a few kata/forms.

Yes, I teach the Boonhae (Bunkai) in my advanced classes. I know there of those of you on here that teach it congruently with forms at each rank, but I just haven't done that yet. I am trying to follow my KJN's curriculum, and merely delving deeper into it with my advanced students. I love seeing the "light bulbs turn on" when we first start with the Kicho Hyung's application.. .

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes, I teach the Boonhae (Bunkai) in my advanced classes. I know there of those of you on here that teach it congruently with forms at each rank, but I just haven't done that yet. I am trying to follow my KJN's curriculum, and merely delving deeper into it with my advanced students. I love seeing the "light bulbs turn on" when we first start with the Kicho Hyung's application.. .

At what level to your advanced classes start at?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

4th gup by invitation, typically it depends on the age of the student, as I don't teach these techniques to young children. Typically our advanced class consists of teens and adults that are 4th gup and up, and black belts of all ages.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

4th gup by invitation, typically it depends on the age of the student, as I don't teach these techniques to young children. Typically our advanced class consists of teens and adults that are 4th gup and up, and black belts of all ages.

Thank you.

 

[Gorilla]

We have trained 11 years in Tkd and 2.5 years in Karate. TKD is Karate that moved to Korea that was influenced by the culture and the politics of the last 60 years in Asia which includes the split of the Korean peninsula (Korean War) and the residual issues caused by the brutalization at the hands of The Japanese during WW2.

IMO TKD is a form of Karate and we should be proud of that! I am a minority in this opinion.

If you are going to train in both let each stand on its own (don't compare) it will hinder your growth in both.