Poomsae world champion

[Manny]

A few days back Ollin Yolitzi Medina the Mexican Poomsae world champion came to dojang invited by the sabonim, Ollin just won gold medal (couples) and silver medal (solo) last november in the world pomsae championships in Aguascalientes Mexico, she has won many medals before in championships and we were glad to have her in dojang.

What amazes me is the great impact she generate in her fists and kicks and blocks and everithing, she weights not more than 48 kilograms but she can generate such impact using her hands that really make me say wow!!

She was kind and told us that basics are everthing, very simple if your basics are poor you will never be a pomsae champion and even we train in basics it was very nice.

Manny

 

[Mephisto]

It's cool you got to see a world class athlete. But how can you assess an athletes ability to generate Impact without seeing her actually hit anything?

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's cool you got to see a world class athlete. But how can you assess an athletes ability to generate Impact without seeing her actually hit anything?

It really isn't at all difficult to watch someone move and have a pretty good idea how well they will be able to generate power. If you're watching them perform poomsae, it's even easier.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Manny]

It's cool you got to see a world class athlete. But how can you assess an athletes ability to generate Impact without seeing her actually hit anything?

Very simple, I saw the speed and herd the sound it was just like a whip, when the whip is at relax it's wimpy even when you put it in action the wip is softh but when it reaches it's point WAMMMMMM!!!

The proper techinike of Ollin from cero to impact is awesome, the way she moves, the way she prepares the technike the way she finish the technike it's awesome, many-many years of hard work.

And yes the comparision is very good she's like a whip, slender but powerfull on impact!

Manny

 

[Mephisto]

Very simple, I saw the speed and herd the sound it was just like a whip, when the whip is at relax it's wimpy even when you put it in action the wip is softh but when it reaches it's point WAMMMMMM!!!

The proper techinike of Ollin from cero to impact is awesome, the way she moves, the way she prepares the technike the way she finish the technike it's awesome, many-many years of hard work.

And yes the comparision is very good she's like a whip, slender but powerfull on impact!

Manny

If argue that if she's not hitting anything there's no impact but I see where you're going with this. I've met some people who look good striking in the air but things change when contact is made with a heavy object like a bag or a body. But if her technique was sound I'm sure she can hit. Can you link a video?

 

[Gnarlie]

If argue that if she's not hitting anything there's no impact but I see where you're going with this. I've met some people who look good striking in the air but things change when contact is made with a heavy object like a bag or a body. But if her technique was sound I'm sure she can hit. Can you link a video?

It's highly unlikely that a Poomsae World Champion has not learned how to hit things as part of their training. In my experience, high level poomsae competitors have superior form outside of the patterns as well as inside.

There's just no question there.

 

[Mephisto]

It's highly unlikely that a Poomsae World Champion has not learned how to hit things as part of their training. In my experience, high level poomsae competitors have superior form outside of the patterns as well as inside.

There's just no question there.

Yes there is a question at least by me. How many high level pooomse champs have you trained with? I'm not talking about superior training I'm talking about ability to hit an impact. I might assume that someone who shows good form but I can't be sure until they actually hit something.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes there is a question at least by me. How many high level pooomse champs have you trained with?

Several. Enough to know how they hit when they spar.

I'm not talking about superior training I'm talking about ability to hit an impact. I might assume that someone who shows good form but I can't be sure until they actually hit something.

I'm not talking about superior training (although their training is elite level) either if you read my post. I'm saying that superior technique is also developed outside of the poomsae. And that includes striking and sparring.

As Manny has already implied, good poomsae form and technique comes from strong basics. Basics includes hitting stuff, even before 1st dan. You just don't develop that kind of form without being able to land contact.

These people are typically experienced black belts with strong links to the WTF and Kukkiwon, and more than one string to their bow, but even ignoring that, the basic syllabus to 1st dan includes full contact sparring.

Of course, it could be that a world class competitor just practices in the air and never hits anything. That they don't spend time lifting weights to build the extraordinary strength and flexibility that high level poomsae requires. That they magically develop and are able to demonstrate visible power in motions without ever having hit anything. Having never sparred. But I think it really rather unlikely.

 

[Gnarlie]

I've met some people who look good striking in the air but things change when contact is made with a heavy object like a bag or a body.

Probably weren't champions or high level WTF competitors though?

 

[Mephisto]

Probably weren't champions or high level WTF competitors though?

Check out Tony Ja, Jet Li and Jacki Chan. All great athletes, and all perform great on screen, but can they fight? Jackie Chan admits he's not a fighter. There are athletes that perform well and their form looks sloppy or unimpressive, and there are people who look great but lack the athleticism to win fights. My initial comment was that you can't judge impact and someone's ability to hit while watching them punch air. An entertainment/demonstration performance is entirely different from a fight or competition. Skill in one doesn't automatically guarantee skill in the other, but it's possible.

 

[Gnarlie]

Check out Tony Ja, Jet Li and Jacki Chan. All great athletes, and all perform great on screen, but can they fight? Jackie Chan admits he's not a fighter. There are athletes that perform well and their form looks sloppy or unimpressive, and there are people who look great but lack the athleticism to win fights. My initial comment was that you can't judge impact and someone's ability to hit while watching them punch air. An entertainment/demonstration performance is entirely different from a fight or competition. Skill in one doesn't automatically guarantee skill in the other, but it's possible.

I disagree, I think you can totally judge someone's level of coordination, balance and power generation by watching their poomsae, and determine whether they are a good contact striker in terms of the level of contact they could make against a target.

But ability to hit something hard doesn't equate to fighting ability either. This is the first time you've expressed that you meant fighting rather than hitting. Those two things are very different. There's very little doubt in my mind that poomsae competitors and those guys you listed are capable of creating great impact against a target even though they may not fight competitively.

But aside from all that, contact and fighting aren't exactly the point of competitive poomsae, are they? So your points regarding whether they can fight / make contact or not are moot. It is more about whether it *looks* graceful and powerful.

My point is that to make it look graceful and powerful to an experienced eye (that of the judges), knowledge of how to actually carry power into a strike is necessary. When this knowledge is not there, it's immediately obvious from the person's dynamic posture during strikes and kicks, and they don't make it to world championship level...

 

[ATC]

Below are clips from the USA Poomsae team. I have the pleasure of knowing many of them, and have one student that is also apart of this team and he placed at worlds. They are all great athletes and generate great power in their forms. Many of them were fighters before they chose to do poomsae and were pretty good at fighting. A few still do both. But it is very hard to be elite at both, as both require all your time to be great at. I can tell you from training with them and having a student that was a pretty good fighter that they do and can hit hard. They don't just do poomsae a part of their training is board and brick breaking. They also kick shield, bags and targets as well to help develop that power. Enjoy the clips.

USA at World Championships -

Some Target Drills -

Some - Young lower belt poomsae members testing -

 

[WaterGal]

That must've been really exciting, Manny! It's great getting to work with really talented and skilled people. Did she teach a class, or just visit?

 

[Gnarlie]

So what did you learn from her Manny?

 

[Mephisto]

I disagree, I think you can totally judge someone's level of coordination, balance and power generation by watching their poomsae, and determine whether they are a good contact striker in terms of the level of contact they could make against a target.

But ability to hit something hard doesn't equate to fighting ability either. This is the first time you've expressed that you meant fighting rather than hitting. Those two things are very different. There's very little doubt in my mind that poomsae competitors and those guys you listed are capable of creating great impact against a target even though they may not fight competitively.

But aside from all that, contact and fighting aren't exactly the point of competitive poomsae, are they? So your points regarding whether they can fight / make contact or not are moot. It is more about whether it *looks* graceful and powerful.

My point is that to make it look graceful and powerful to an experienced eye (that of the judges), knowledge of how to actually carry power into a strike is necessary. When this knowledge is not there, it's immediately obvious from the person's dynamic posture during strikes and kicks, and they don't make it to world championship level...

You make a fair point. A person's movement can demonstrate that they have the potential to generate power, but I do not agree that is guarantees it. The initial statement about impact is what I was questioning. Impact has to deal with how that power is transferred to a target, there must be two objects for an impact to take place. Just like fighting and solo demonstration, body coordination and potential power generation are different than actual impact power and transmission of force. If the person demonstrating the poomse also performs breaking skills they may very well be able to generate power that can impact a target. However, the ability of a poomse champ to perform a breaking feat will differ greatly from someone who performs competition breaks. Also, a person who performs in competitive breaking will not be able to strike a heavy bag or person as efficiently as a professional boxer. Each skill is unique and sport specific.

My point is a persons movement can infer a lot about their potential but it doesn't guarantee anything. I've seen some impressive demos and heard other spectators comment about how skilled and dangerous the demonstrators appeared to be. However, I've sparred these same demonstrators and know the difference between a demonstration and reality. Neither way is right or wrong and as you mentioned the goal of a poomse champ isn't fighting ability. The poomse champ in the op might be able to transfer a lot of force to a target via impact or she may not, imo you can't judge that without actually seeing her hit something. But you can see her athleticism, coordination, and ability to perform the technique.

 

[Gnarlie]

You make a fair point. A person's movement can demonstrate that they have the potential to generate power, but I do not agree that is guarantees it.

I understand your point, but what that movement tells...that is in the eye of the beholder.

The initial statement about impact is what I was questioning. Impact has to deal with how that power is transferred to a target, there must be two objects for an impact to take place. Just like fighting and solo demonstration, body coordination and potential power generation are different than actual impact power and transmission of force.

Yes, they are different but closely related. It's pretty easy for me to very reliably say after a short time watching someone move what kind of impact they can generate.

If the person demonstrating the poomse also performs breaking skills they may very well be able to generate power that can impact a target.

Do you think that otherwise they won't?

However, the ability of a poomse champ to perform a breaking feat will differ greatly from someone who performs competition breaks.

Does not follow, and those two groups are not mutually exclusive - quite the opposite.

Also, a person who performs in competitive breaking will not be able to strike a heavy bag or person as efficiently as a professional boxer.

Also does not follow. There is no reason why competitive breaking participation would preclude efficient striking against a bag or person.

Each skill is unique and sport specific.

Each skill is a specialism within the larger realm of striking. One specialism within that realm does not preclude another. There are skill aspects common to all the specialisms and many other skill aspects are transferable across specialisms with modification. The specialisms are not learned in isolation. You don't start out and think 'I am going to start today, from zero, and become a breaking champ'. Nor do you start out to become a poomsae champ. You learn the art Taekwondo, and part of that is learning to strike and transfer power to a target.

My point is a persons movement can infer a lot about their potential but it doesn't guarantee anything.

Again, in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason high level poomsae judges are carefully selected.

I've seen some impressive demos and heard other spectators comment about how skilled and dangerous the demonstrators appeared to be.

Were the spectators experienced high level poomsae judges?

However, I've sparred these same demonstrators and know the difference between a demonstration and reality.

Then what those spectators judged to be an impressive demo may not have actually scored well in international poomsae competition. What pleases a crowd is not the only thing these very experienced judges are looking for.

Neither way is right or wrong and as you mentioned the goal of a poomse champ isn't fighting ability. The poomse champ in the op might be able to transfer a lot of force to a target via impact or she may not, imo you can't judge that without actually seeing her hit something.

Some people might not be able to, but a good poomsae judge will. It's in the eye of...well,you know.

But you can see her athleticism, coordination, and ability to perform the technique.

Amongst other things more important to World Championship success, yes you can.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Some - Young lower belt poomsae members testing -

Holy moly, that yellow belt girl is good.

 

[Manny]

That must've been really exciting, Manny! It's great getting to work with really talented and skilled people. Did she teach a class, or just visit?

It was just a visit, Ollin was a part of Hwarang Tae Kwond Do dojang in Veracruz.

Manny

 

[WaterGal]

Holy moly, that yellow belt girl is good.

I'm definitely impressed by them just standing there holding those high kicks in the air. I think I know what I want to start doing in my striking class.....

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm definitely impressed by them just standing there holding those high kicks in the air. I think I know what I want to start doing in my striking class.....

I've heard it said here that one can only generate power in a kick up to the maximum height that one can comfortably hold it out.

It's interesting that this kind of flexibility and strength is quite common in poomsae competitors, and yet it seems people don't believe in their ability to strike hard.

IMO slow kicking and holding kicks is some of the most rewarding training a kicker can do.