1st World Teakwondo Poomsae Championships

TKDDAD

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Hi, Incase anyone is interested the World Taekwondo Federation has some video footage posted on their web site from the 1st World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships - 04-06 September 2006. I don't know how long the video will remain available, so I provide link to each video with a little detail.

1.) What I am interested in is a critique of what were some obvious flaws in some of the performances.

2.) Who demostrated the best example of a perticular stance, kick, or block. (I know there are many names for each stance, kick, or block.

3.) Do you agree or disagree who won what medal based on the performace given. For example I feel that GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark should have won Gold. Just don't understand what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performance better.

I hope this is of interest to some of you.

P.S. I mis-spelled Taekwondo in the title, can a mod fix that. Thanks.

Best Regards
TKDDAD.


1st World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships - 04-06 September 2006 - WTF Videos.

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0001.wmv - 16,906 KB Size 6:46 Min
Individual Junior Female (14-18)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Vanesa Leon Spain Koryo 00:00-01:06 0:45
2. Bronze Vanesa Leon Spain Taebaek 01:07-01:50 0:35
3. Silver Ozlem Kansik Turkey Taebaek 01:51-02:51 0:38
4. Silver Ozlem Kansik Turkey Koryo 02:52-03:56 0:53
5. Gold Lee Na-Yeon Korea Koryo 03:57-05:09 0:54
6. Gold Lee Na-Yeon Korea Taebaek 05:10-06:03 0:40

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0002.wmv - 18,118 KB Size 7:11 Min
Individual Junior Male (14-18)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Lu Chu-Sheng Chinses Taipei Taegeuk 8 00:00-01:02 0:45
2. Bronze Lu Chu-Sheng Chinses Taipei Keumgang 01:03-02:26 1:02
3. Silver Nadali Najafabadi Iran Taegeuk 8 02:27-03:24 0:47
4. Silver Nadali Najafabadi Iran Koryo 03:25-04:27 0:53
5. Gold Jang Jae-Uk Korea Taegeuk 8 04:28-05:32 0:46
6. Gold Jang Jae-Uk Korea Koryo 05:33-06:43 0:53

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0003.wmv - 13,977 Size 5:36 Min
Individual Senior 1st Division Female (19-30)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Beaujean Claudia Germany Koryo 00:00-01:17 0:52
2. Silver Laura Kim Kim Spain Koryo 01:18-02:32 0:51
3. Gold Hong Hee-Jeong Korea Sipjin 02:33-04:03 1:09
4. Gold Hong Hee-Jeong Korea Taebaek 04:04-04:47 0:37

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0004.wmv - 18,327 Size 7:20 Min
Individual Senior 1st Division Male (19-30)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Ali Salmani Azarkhavarani Iran Taebaek 00:00-00:51 0:37
2. Bronze Ali Salmani Azarkhavarani Iran Sipjin 00:52-02:10 1:14
3. Silver Nguyen Dinh Toan Vietnam Taebaek 02:11-03:04 0:39
4. Silver Nguyen Dinh Toan Vietnam Sipjin 03:05-04:23 1:08
5. Gold Kim Bo-Hyeon Korea Taebaek 04:24-05:14 0:36
6. Gold Kim Bo-Hyeon Korea Taebaek 05:15-06:40 1:16

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0005.wmv - 16,289 size 6:31 min
Individual Senior 1st Division Female (31-40)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Josefina Lopez Spain Sipjin 00:00-01:28 1:06
2. Silver Nesibe Altun Turkey Keumgang 01:29-03:01 1:12
3. Silver Nesibe Altun Turkey Taebaek 03:02-03:57 0:42
4. Gold Song Nam-Jeong Korea Pyongwon 03:58-04:56 0:36
5. Gold Song Nam-Jeong Korea Taebaek 04:57-05:44 0:38


http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0006.wmv - 22,730 Size 9:07 Min
Individual Master 1st Division Female (41-50)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Carmela Hartnett Australia Sipjin 00:00-01:41 1:19
2. Bronze Carmela Hartnett Australia Jitae 01:42-03:02 1:01
3. Silver Forca Le Bas Sybille France Jitae 03:03-04:13 0:51
4. Silver Forca Le Bas Sybille France Chonkwon 04:14-05:31 1:10
5. Gold Lee Mi-Ok Korea Jitae 05:32-06:50 0:59
6. Gold Lee Mi-Ok Korea Chonkwon 06:51-08:20 1:13


http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0007.wmv - 20,513 Size 9:57 min
Individual Master 1st Division Male (41-50)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Seyed Hassan Zehedi Iran Keumgang 00:00-01:34 1:15
2. Bronze Seyed Hassan Zehedi Iran Chonkwon 01:35-03:04 1:15
3. Silver Ky Tu Dang Denmark Keumgang 03:05-04:35 1:10
3. Silver Ky Tu Dang Denmark Chonkwon 04:36-06:10 1:17
4. Gold Lee Seong-Woo Korea Keumgang 06:11-07:34 1:04
6. Gold Lee Seong-Woo Korea Chonkwon 07:35-09:10 1:19

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/newsletter/0008.wmv - 18,659 Size 9:03 min
Individual Master 2nd Division Female (51+)

Vid Medal Name Country Poomsae Vid-Pos Time
1. Bronze Rosa Ruiz Perez Spain Sipjin 00:00-01:34 1:06
2. Bronze Rosa Ruiz Perez Spain Jitae 01:35-02:48 0:58
3. Silver Bronwyn Butterworth Australia Sipjin 02:49-04:12 0:57
3. Silver Bronwyn Butterworth Australia Hansu 04:13-05:12 0:40
4. Gold Jang Chung-Hee Korea Sipjin 05:13-06:50 1:09
6. Gold Jang Chung-Hee Korea Jitae 06:51-08:17 0:59
 

Miles

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There is a 2 dvd set on the Championships which came out in October. I bought it at the USAT Sr. Nationals. It is available from Vision whose website is www.mykick.com.

Miles
 

wade

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Thanks to both of you. 3 of my friends competed here in the states and made the US team, as you can see none of them medaled in Korea but it was a real learning experience in forms and politics. :uhyeah:
 
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TKDDAD

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Miles - I have already ordered the DVD back in Dec 2006, but it is on back order until the first week of March 2006. Beings you have the DVD can you tell if it shows how the judges scored each of the performances. Does it show when a deduction was given. I would like to find out what your opions and observations you noted when you veiwed the performances.

Also, Can you give me some insight to what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performances better than GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark performances.

wade - I would be interested in learning and hearing about those experiences.

I am also, interested in finding some videos from the 2006-0714 NASTO 1st Poomse Natl Team Trials held in California. I have yet to be able to find any so far. One of the competitors Monica Marshall was from my son's old dojang and she placed 4th in the Female 31-40 Division.

I am also interested in finding out when and where the next US Poomsae Natl Team Trials will be held. So far there hasn't been any information that I can find.

Perfection in the martial arts is like a jewel. It is merely a rough stone until polished. If it is not polished, no one will know its inner beauty. Training is the same.
 

mango.man

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TKDDAD,

Nothing has been announced about the next team trials yet.

As for videos from the first team trials, if you like I can give you access to the video I have of my daughter at the team trials. I guess you can use it as a guide of what not to do, since she ended up 16th out of 19 in her division and did not make it out of the first round. ;) Good for her for trying it though.
 
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TKDDAD

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mango.man - That would be nice, an 8.20 isn't a bad score. Plus, I already ready have some of her's other competitions even the one where she was robbed of several points while her opponent got a ghost point for no contact at the 2006 Jimmy Kim Invitational.
 

mango.man

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I have sent you a private message with instructions on how to get the video.

That whole Jimmy Kim thing still has everyone who has seen the video scratching their heads. There was an IR scoring the match (Dr Thackrey) and the other 2 corners were typically good judges as well as we have seen them several times.

On the brightside, that match made my daughter realize that when she goes in the ring she needs to really try to dominate so that the judges have no doubt who the winner should be.

If you watch the 06 Beach Cities video, her first fight is against the same girl she "lost" to at Jimmy Kim's. My daughter beat her 9-2 to avenge her "loss" at Jimmy Kim's.
 
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TKDDAD

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mango.man - Just finished watching the video. She looked like she was very nervous and was rushing a bit. But a good effort none the less and a great experience for her. My son wasn't old enough last year to go. This year he will be old enough to enter and if he does well in the US Open, I hope to be able to enter him.

Thanks for sharing your video.

Best Regards,
TKDDAD
 

Laurentkd

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This should maybe be a new thread but...

After watching these videos I am curious how many of you do stances as they are done in these examples. My hay-day of competing ended about 8 years ago, but at that time everybody's stances were much deeper than they seem to be now at most tournaments (especially back and horse). I know that shallower stances is also the example Kukkiwon is giving us as well, but I just can't give up the deeper stances. I think they show so much more than shallow stances and I think forms look much more impressive with low stances. Of course they aren't as practical as far as self defense goes, but they sure make the legs stronger. And while I know that poomse can and does help our self-defense I do not feel that is the true purpose of poomse (definitely another topic for another time). I don't know, I know if I say I am a Kukkiwon Black Belt I should do things the way they say to do them (if I could possibly keep up with the changes!), but I just can't seem to give up my deep stances.
What do you think?
 

zDom

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This should maybe be a new thread but...

After watching these videos I am curious how many of you do stances as they are done in these examples. My hay-day of competing ended about 8 years ago, but at that time everybody's stances were much deeper than they seem to be now at most tournaments (especially back and horse). I know that shallower stances is also the example Kukkiwon is giving us as well, but I just can't give up the deeper stances. I think they show so much more than shallow stances and I think forms look much more impressive with low stances. Of course they aren't as practical as far as self defense goes, but they sure make the legs stronger. And while I know that poomse can and does help our self-defense I do not feel that is the true purpose of poomse (definitely another topic for another time). I don't know, I know if I say I am a Kukkiwon Black Belt I should do things the way they say to do them (if I could possibly keep up with the changes!), but I just can't seem to give up my deep stances.
What do you think?

I am "retired" from TKD, so to speak, but for the record: I will NEVER give up my low stances.

"High stances for mobility and low stances for stability."

Deep stances, as you pointed out, are also better training. Someone with deep stances can always go shallower, but someone who trains shallow stances won't be able to go deeper if they need to.

In sparring/fighting, most of the time it is a high stance. But if you want to really hit someone hard with a reverse punch, front stance adds body weight to the technique — and a deep stance is more powerful.

As far as aesthetics: deep stances (deep, CORRECT stances — not exaggerated to the point where they look silly) will always get better scores from me when I'm on a panel. High stances (for things like back, front, horse stance) look lazy and weak.

This movement toward high (front, back, horse) stances is bad for taekwondo, IMO.
 

mango.man

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As far as aesthetics: deep stances (deep, CORRECT stances not exaggerated to the point where they look silly) will always get better scores from me when I'm on a panel. High stances (for things like back, front, horse stance) look lazy and weak.

And that is where the problem lies with forms competition. People want to judge based on their personal standards and preferences as opposed to simply whether or not the competitor did it right according to the governance of the sanctioning body of the event.
 

Gizmo

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First of all, thanks for posting the links.

For example I feel that GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark should have won Gold. Just don't understand what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performance better.

You are not alone here. I also think that Master Kytu's performance was way better...

Gizmo
 

terryl965

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And that is where the problem lies with forms competition. People want to judge based on their personal standards and preferences as opposed to simply whether or not the competitor did it right according to the governance of the sanctioning body of the event.


I do not believe it is personal standerds that is the problem I believe it is lack of really understanding the concept of each and every poomsae. In TKD even OLympic style to many people teach the way they was tought and not really by the Kukkiwon Textt Book and most are not up to date on changes that are made until years later. If as an ARt or sport to be taken seriously we have to unite as one and come together on the way it is to be done.
 

zDom

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I do not believe it is personal standerds that is the problem I believe it is lack of really understanding the concept of each and every poomsae. In TKD even OLympic style to many people teach the way they was tought and not really by the Kukkiwon Textt Book and most are not up to date on changes that are made until years later. If as an ARt or sport to be taken seriously we have to unite as one and come together on the way it is to be done.

I agree.

And changes in base concepts every couple of years simply to change or worse, to make it "less Japanese" is corrupting the art, IMO.

Furthermore who is making these changes? If KKW President Uhm is not making them and/or approving of them (and remember: he had a hand in coming up with the forms in the first place!) and letting GM ED Sell know about the changes (who would then let my buddy Tim Wall know, who would then let ME know), then why should I bother to change?

So who IS making these changes? WTF "officials"?

WTF specialists aren't exactly known for their form ability.

It seems to me (and someone set me straight if I'm wrong here) that we have WTF hacks changing the forms so everybody does them like THEY do them: weak.

Sorry if that's harsh, but this is the impression I'm getting, and I'll say it again: it is BAD for taekwondo.

I'm not saying that people should drop into deep stances during an Olympic sparring match, btw. But changing taekwondo so people who have never given a damn about forms in the first place are the ones winning forms championships so they can have TWO trophies instead of one is, well: its just wrong.
 

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Miles - I have already ordered the DVD back in Dec 2006, but it is on back order until the first week of March 2006. Beings you have the DVD can you tell if it shows how the judges scored each of the performances. Does it show when a deduction was given. I would like to find out what your opions and observations you noted when you veiwed the performances.

Also, Can you give me some insight to what made GM Lee, Seong-Woo performances better than GM Ky Tu Dang from Denmark performances.

I think the posted link is exactly what is on the DVD. The latter is just a little clearer (though it may be my computer is not as good with the downloaded video compared to the DVD).

I personally prefer Ky Tu Dang's performance but his punches are a shade high and his cadence is a little unorthodox (which is probably why he is so successful on the open tournament circuit). I thought his balance in Keumgang was better though his suspended knee was a bit low. I thought he had better power than GM Lee.

BTW, MSUTKD-isn't the IR behind Ky Tu Dang one of the referees from Cleveland?

Miles
 

Laurentkd

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I agree.

And changes in base concepts every couple of years simply to change or worse, to make it "less Japanese" is corrupting the art, IMO.

Furthermore who is making these changes? If KKW President Uhm is not making them and/or approving of them (and remember: he had a hand in coming up with the forms in the first place!) and letting GM ED Sell know about the changes (who would then let my buddy Tim Wall know, who would then let ME know), then why should I bother to change?

So who IS making these changes? WTF "officials"?

WTF specialists aren't exactly known for their form ability.

It seems to me (and someone set me straight if I'm wrong here) that we have WTF hacks changing the forms so everybody does them like THEY do them: weak.

Sorry if that's harsh, but this is the impression I'm getting, and I'll say it again: it is BAD for taekwondo.

I'm not saying that people should drop into deep stances during an Olympic sparring match, btw. But changing taekwondo so people who have never given a damn about forms in the first place are the ones winning forms championships so they can have TWO trophies instead of one is, well: its just wrong.

I am with you again here. I have not been to the Kukkiwon Instructor seminar and so I am sure there are others here more knowledgeable then I, but there are SO many "WTF approved" books and videos out there (new ones all the time) that are drastically different, how can we attempt to decide what is really "correct." My (and my sahbomnim's) take on it is until we hear different from my Grandmaster we don't change anything.
 
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TKDDAD

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I think the posted link is exactly what is on the DVD. The latter is just a little clearer (though it may be my computer is not as good with the downloaded video compared to the DVD).

I personally prefer Ky Tu Dang's performance but his punches are a shade high and his cadence is a little unorthodox (which is probably why he is so successful on the open tournament circuit). I thought his balance in Keumgang was better though his suspended knee was a bit low. I thought he had better power than GM Lee.

BTW, MSUTKD-isn't the IR behind Ky Tu Dang one of the referees from Cleveland?

Miles

Miles - Thanks for your comments about Ky Tu Dang's performance. How is Lu Chu-Sheng Chinses Taipei Keumgang balance. Is it a good example of how it should be executed? If not, what do you think needs to be changed to make it more correct?
 

wade

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To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.
 

terryl965

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To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.


Wade alot of people was not happy with the outcome but that is what is expected at these types of events. Sometime the best win, but mostly it is not and that is my opinion
 
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TKDDAD

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To TKDDAD. I asked them if they would like to give their opinions in open forum for those that were interested and all of them said...........no. If you watch the Video's of the various medal winners and their forms and all the variations they use, well, uh, I wasn't there so I really can't say anything about it either. Sorry. I can say they were not happy, but that is just my opinion.

I was hoping to get more feedback on who demostrated the best example of a certain type of seogi (stance), makki (defense or blocking) techniques, jireugi (punching), or chagi (kicking). For example the Tongmilgi junbi seogi (pushing-hands ready stance) for Koryo form. I have seen the finger tips push out at eye level and philtrum (the indentation just under the nose) level. Which is technically the correct way of doing it. Do the judges deduct a 0.10 point if it done at eye level or philtrum level?

I wasn't looking for opinion of how the judging was done, but rather what are the judges looking for and what was the best example of it.

Best Regards,
TKDDAD
 

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