Poomsae applications

[miguksaram]

...your wonderful Korean born higher rank forced me into launching a program to 15 villages before

Just curious, but how were you forced?

 

[Manny]

Maybe the people designing those forms liked Okinawan karate. Mae geri or the front kick is the staple in most styles of Okinawan karate.

My way of thinking is..... the poomsae like the kata is some kind of combat againt imaginary oponents, Am I right? well confronting several oponents I will keep the things very simple, why use a high kick (dollyo chagui) that can be grabed by an oponent, or why use spining hook kick that can be deflected and grabed? instead I will use powerful trusting front kicks to try to keep the bad guys at bay.

Yes, the front kick is the easiest kick but is one of the hardest to block, besides the ball of the foot is such an impact area well suited to take the breath or any muger if done properly.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Terry, having thought about this some more, I think poomsae isn't the right tool to try to change to add more defense applications. In class we use a lot of different training tools and methods in addition to forms: shields, paddles, bags and boards to develop different aspects of striking, line drills, partner drills, one-steps, and sparring drills from specific scenario to free sparring, etc. Forms are great for developing focus of the mind and for emphasizing quality of technique. I get how they can be seen as fighting an imaginary opponent, but I think there are better ways to train for defense than trying to make them into real defense training. It's like trying to use a screwdriver for carving: it is 'kinda' like a chisel and you can do some things with it in a pinch. If you want to, you can even hammer and grind, forge and sharpen your screwdriver to make it into a carving tool, but it makes more sense to save it for screws and just pick up a knife or chisel.

 

[dancingalone]

Forms are great for developing focus of the mind and for emphasizing quality of technique. I get how they can be seen as fighting an imaginary opponent, but I think there are better ways to train for defense than trying to make them into real defense training.

It depends on your forms training methodology. Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form. Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication. These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.

Many Japanese karate styles, including Shotokan, just do not have the same type of forms training, preferring to focus on kihon (basics) and sparring. TKD follows Shotokan in this respect.

As a happy outlier in the TKD world, I am slowly introducing some of the kata-based training gleaned from Okinawan karate into my TKD class.

 

[StudentCarl]

It depends on your forms training methodology. Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form. Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication. These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.

Many Japanese karate styles, including Shotokan, just do not have the same type of forms training, preferring to focus on kihon (basics) and sparring. TKD follows Shotokan in this respect.

As a happy outlier in the TKD world, I am slowly introducing some of the kata-based training gleaned from Okinawan karate into my TKD class.

Thanks, I probably should have specified. As a colored belt I'm doing Taegeuks, which I think are more about progressive development of stance and technique than application, though the higher Taegeuks have chunks that I think transfer well. I just don't think the Taegeuks were designed with the uses Terry is talking about in mind, but as a 1st gup my only qualification is to consider forms training as it compares to my other activities in the dojang.

 

[dancingalone]

Carl, if I were a betting man, I would be willing to wager with your proposition. That indeed, the Taegeuks (or the Palgwes or the Chang Hon forms) were NOT designed to teach martial application in the sense that karate-ka now use the term 'bunkai' to represent. On the other hand I don't see why a new canon of SD tactics could not be invented around the Taegeuk poomsae. They're just a collection of physical motion. Any creative master who understands the principles important in his combat system could attach multiple layers of meaning to any sequence of movements.

 

[Archtkd]

As usual you see my name and look for a way to personally atack me always off topic. You always acuse everyone of being uneducated or not walking in the same worthy lite as you. Well study the forum rules again.
You think you got something you can hurt me with?...

I'm not taking sides, but should a thread about Poomsae application meander to this sad and personal points? It shouldn't matter who started the downward spiral, but I think we can all agree that there is a point at which things get out of control and make us all sound strange, to say the least.

 

[puunui]

It depends on your forms training methodology. Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form. Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication. These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.

Can you give an example? Also, is it your understanding that the above methodology has always been part of the Okinawan practice of the martial arts?

 

[puunui]

I'm not taking sides, but should a thread about Poomsae application meander to this sad and personal points? It shouldn't matter who started the downward spiral, but I think we can all agree that there is a point at which things get out of control and make us all sound strange, to say the least.

I remember a conversation I had with Juan Moreno back when he was still an OTC resident athlete. We were talking about the importance of steps in Taekwondo competition sparring. He said that some people would argue that you didn't need steps. They would then spar at OTC and he would use steps to continuously score while the other person would get madder and madder, trying more and more outrageous stuff in an effort to prove their point. These people felt that OTC was an "evil" place that did not teach the proper form of Taekwondo because of its deemphasis on poomsae, failing to grasp that the OTC Head Coach was a 10 time poomsae National Champion in addition to his other accomplishments.

Now no one really argues about the necessity of the use of steps in competition sparring, but back then it was radical stuff that people vocally opposed. I think we are also coming to the point where no one will really argue about stance length or width in poomsae, something that was a big deal.

As for poomsae applications, I do think that the first step is to understand the proper mechanics of the actual movements before going off on applications. I see too many out there choosing to concentrate on triple warmer pressure points with this or that angle, and you have to activate this point by doing this or that, when they cannot even do the poomsae in which they are getting that application correctly in the first place.

But we are getting there. In the meantime, those who are attempting to lead the way will continue to have rocks thrown at them by those who enjoy and/or need the darkness. It just comes with the territory, so don't worry about it. I don't. It's not like any of the rocks are actually hitting their mark.

 

[dancingalone]

Can you give an example? Also, is it your understanding that the above methodology has always been part of the Okinawan practice of the martial arts?

Got class to go to, but I was able to find this in a few seconds of googling. It's somewhat unsatisfactory as there is not a extremely obvious example of kiso kumite based on a kata, but you can see some basic movement/basics built off kata. Also, the sensei shows some bunkai.

[yt]wILi_VpkzFs[/yt]

People argue about how long this type of kata training has been going on. My own teacher says it has always been part of Goju-ryu (granted Goju-ryu only exists under that name since the early 1900s so we're not exactly talking a long time here). He is a Jundokan man and he says they practiced what we now call bunkai back in the sixties though they did not call it that then. You can look at the writings of men like Toguchi, Seiko, a pre-WWII student of Miyagi, Chojun and come out of it arguing that bunkai was also known to him although he didn't call it as such.

It's largely unknown what actual practices Higashionna, Kanryo brought back from China that he taught to Miyagi, Chojun. However, it's very interesting to read the various articles published by Mario McKenna Sensei, one of the few practitioners of Tuo'on-ryu, which is Higashionna's style passed down without the changes Miyagi himself made. From the articles I've seen from Mr. McKenna, I tend to believe defined kata applications have also existed within his style from at least the same time Goju-ryu acquired them, whenever that was.

There are some interesting posts from Victor Smith, an Isshin-ryu man, on the karate board where he argues the opposite position that Okinawan karate 'bunkai' wasn't taught explicitly and that it was more a process of self-mastery. I respect his research and knowledge, but I disagree at least with respect to my own line of Goju-ryu.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What's old is new again. "wax on wax off" "Pick up Jacket....."

Learn the concept and understand 100 applications. Learn 100 applications and understand one concept.

 

[puunui]

What's old is new again. "wax on wax off" "Pick up Jacket....."
Learn the concept and understand 100 applications. Learn 100 applications and understand one concept.

Wax on, wax off is a good example. Remember how angry Daniel san was because he went there expecting to learn karate but instead felt like Mr. Miyagi's slave? Many students are like that, except that they leave before realizing or understanding their teacher's point of view and the lesson to be learned, and end up bad mouthing both their teacher and their seniors as a result. But take a step forward and then everything is seen in a whole different light. Most of my time as a teacher is spent trying to get the student to take that step forward.

 

[zDom]

My thoughts after wading through some interesting discussion and some ... bizarre contributions:

• My thoughts are that poomse are not necessarily supposed to represent a fight with a imaginary attackers so much as it is a series of movements practiced as a unit intended to be trained with the INTENSITY and FOCUS that one would have in a combat situation.

• I think front kicks are a GREAT choice for a self defense situation. If you are defending yourself, the attacker is coming after you. A roundhouse kick does not stop an inbound attacker. A front kick (or a sidekick, which is found in Koryo) WILL stop an inbound attacker's movement toward you.

Roundhouse kicks are great for destroying someone who is stationary or retreating, but if they are coming at you, there is a good chance they will knock you on your *** if you try to roundhouse them.

• The best fighters I have trained with (and I'm not talking sport, I'm talking "if I had to mix it up with THIS guy ...") have ALL been EXCEPTIONAL with their poomse.

I don't know WHY it works exactly, as they don't really free fight in a way that resembles poomse, but I am convinced through 20 years of personal experience that

training poomse with the intensity of fighting real attackers

and carefully considering whether each technique would be effective against an attacker (if they happened to be in the location at the right time and place for that particular technique)

results in solid fighting ability.

Again, I don't know why it works — and really, I don't need to know why. But I DO know: it works.

 

[puunui]

People argue about how long this type of kata training has been going on. My own teacher says it has always been part of Goju-ryu (granted Goju-ryu only exists under that name since the early 1900s so we're not exactly talking a long time here). He is a Jundokan man and he says they practiced what we now call bunkai back in the sixties though they did not call it that then. You can look at the writings of men like Toguchi, Seiko, a pre-WWII student of Miyagi, Chojun and come out of it arguing that bunkai was also known to him although he didn't call it as such.

It's largely unknown what actual practices Higashionna, Kanryo brought back from China that he taught to Miyagi, Chojun. However, it's very interesting to read the various articles published by Mario McKenna Sensei, one of the few practitioners of Tuo'on-ryu, which is Higashionna's style passed down without the changes Miyagi himself made. From the articles I've seen from Mr. McKenna, I tend to believe defined kata applications have also existed within his style from at least the same time Goju-ryu acquired them, whenever that was.

There are some interesting posts from Victor Smith, an Isshin-ryu man, on the karate board where he argues the opposite position that Okinawan karate 'bunkai' wasn't taught explicitly and that it was more a process of self-mastery. I respect his research and knowledge, but I disagree at least with respect to my own line of Goju-ryu.

It doesn't make sense to me that the Okinawan practitioners back at the turn of the century or earlier would simply do kata without working on at least some applications of that kata. Why would a practitioner spend all that time practicing kata and working with the makiwara and not want to work some two man applications? I don't know if Judo and kendo was in Okinawa back then, but I would think that would have gave people at that late date of some ideas for rudimentary sparring. They didn't need to wait for Funakoshi Sensei to move to Japan to start that process.

 

[puunui]

A roundhouse kick does not stop an inbound attacker. A front kick (or a sidekick, which is found in Koryo) WILL stop an inbound attacker's movement toward you. Roundhouse kicks are great for destroying someone who is stationary or retreating, but if they are coming at you, there is a good chance they will knock you on your *** if you try to roundhouse them.

One way to use roundhouse kick against someone rushing you is to side step and roundhouse kick at the same time. Daniel san in the original Karate Kid movie did it as I believe his first move at that all valley tournament. Daniel san is on my brain because he is a competitor on Dancing With the Stars this season. I hope he wins.

The best fighters I have trained with (and I'm not talking sport, I'm talking "if I had to mix it up with THIS guy ...") have ALL been EXCEPTIONAL with their poomse. I don't know WHY it works exactly, as they don't really free fight in a way that resembles poomse, but I am convinced through 20 years of personal experience that
training poomse with the intensity of fighting real attackers and carefully considering whether each technique would be effective against an attacker (if they happened to be in the location at the right time and place for that particular technique) results in solid fighting ability.

I think it has to do with the natural talent of the practitioners. I think being skilled at actual fighting or competing is harder or more challenging than performing solo poomsae. So they have an easier time learning forms.

 

[Archtkd]

One way to use roundhouse kick against someone rushing you is to side step and roundhouse kick at the same time.

Great technique. The way I do and try to teach this is to move foward -- in to meet the attacker -- at a 45 degree angle while firing the kick.

 

[dancingalone]

It doesn't make sense to me that the Okinawan practitioners back at the turn of the century or earlier would simply do kata without working on at least some applications of that kata. Why would a practitioner spend all that time practicing kata and working with the makiwara and not want to work some two man applications? I don't know if Judo and kendo was in Okinawa back then, but I would think that would have gave people at that late date of some ideas for rudimentary sparring. They didn't need to wait for Funakoshi Sensei to move to Japan to start that process.

That's my thought too. I haven't run across a Goju-ryu or a Shorin-ryu dojo yet that didn't have some form of explanatory promise and bunkai kumite to help explain the movements in kata, even if it is only at the surface block/punch level.

<shrugs> I'm sure you've read the stories about some of the Okjinawan masters finding excuses to test their karate in real combat. I don't know whether that is evidence for the affirmative side or not that they did have paired kata drills back then.

 

[zDom]

I agree that angles are great way to use roundhouse in sparring.

I believe in self defense, however, which was the situation specified, I prefer the

K.I.S.S. principle.

 

[puunui]

I agree that angles are great way to use roundhouse in sparring.
I believe in self defense, however, which was the situation specified, I prefer the K.I.S.S. principle.

Side step roundhouse against a charging opponent does follow the KISS principle.

 

[puunui]

That's my thought too. I haven't run across a Goju-ryu or a Shorin-ryu dojo yet that didn't have some form of explanatory promise and bunkai kumite to help explain the movements in kata, even if it is only at the surface block/punch level.

<shrugs> I'm sure you've read the stories about some of the Okjinawan masters finding excuses to test their karate in real combat. I don't know whether that is evidence for the affirmative side or not that they did have paired kata drills back then.

The Chinese Martial Arts that got blended into Okinawan Martial Arts have two man sparring or two man set work, so that is additional evidence. Why would they take the movements and not the exercises or training methods?